From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1758623Ab3BKR7G (ORCPT ); Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:59:06 -0500 Received: from mail-ee0-f54.google.com ([74.125.83.54]:52940 "EHLO mail-ee0-f54.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1758504Ab3BKR7E (ORCPT ); Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:59:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:58:56 +0100 From: Ingo Molnar To: Linus Torvalds Cc: "H. Peter Anvin" , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Randy Dunlap , Thomas Gleixner , David Rientjes , David Woodhouse , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Sasha Levin , "H. Peter Anvin" , Pekka Enberg , Michal Marek , Stephen Rothwell Subject: Re: kvmtool tree (Was: Re: [patch] config: fix make kvmconfig) Message-ID: <20130211175856.GC9716@gmail.com> References: <20130211122654.GA5802@gmail.com> <20130211172807.GA9716@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org * Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Feb 11, 2013 9:28 AM, "Ingo Molnar" wrote: > > > How on earth can anyone, against all that evidence, still > > claim that it's a net minus? > > Because I don't think there is any reason for mixing up the > projects. Why do you not just make it separate? Everything you > claim is such a big deal would still work perfectly well. > > Every time you talk about "negative" it's as of the project > wouldn't exist if it was external. Which is total bull, since > it is effectively external already. [...] That's not actually true. If you check the list of early tools/kvm/ contributors you will see an overlap with -tip contributors. I know tools/kvm/ developers who just use their existing -tip repo to pick up the latest. They are using the -tip commit notifications to see what went in and what not, etc. Claiming that because the contribution model works to a certain degree integrated into a small Linux subsystem tree it does not ever have to go upstream is so wrong on so many levels ... The most likely correct statement would be something like: "if it worked on a small scale it will probably work even better with more exposure on a larger scale." We'll never know that though. ( That is also why some of the focus was on lockdep - knowing that it's close in terms of maintenance distance made it an easier topic - socially. ) Since I'm using it on an almost daily basis to test out failed bzImages, and because I (mistakenly) thought it had some upstream chances, I found it good to help out (a bit) with maintenance and code review. While it works it's obviously limited - there's just so many -tip developers and I thought everyone would benefit from this going the next natural step. > [...] And it will stay that way. You are just in denial and > trying to say that integrating it would somehow help. > > And I claim it wouldn't. It works fine outside already. Just > ADMIT it. So tools/kvm/ works 'just fine' - in its current limited form - because for the developers involved it's already "upstream", for the first hop of upstream. So basically Pekka optimistically thought it's an eventual 'tit for tat', a constant stream of benefits to the kernel, in the hope of finding a home in the upstream kernel which would further help both projects. The kernel wants to keep the 'tit' only though. Thanks, Ingo