From: Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org>
To: Sarah Sharp <sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Guenter Roeck <linux@roeck-us.net>,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
Dave Jones <davej@redhat.com>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
stable <stable@vger.kernel.org>,
Darren Hart <dvhart@linux.intel.com>,
Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
Subject: Re: mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:03:42 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20130719100342.GA26334@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20130719092256.GC25784@gmail.com>
* Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org> wrote:
> [...]
>
> Mistakes in patches and code happen all the time. Linus rarely if ever
> flamed me for _that_ - sh*t happens.
>
> What he flames me for, and what you (with all due respect) still don't
> seem to understand, are _META_ mistakes. Top level maintainer level
> mistakes. Bad patterns of maintainer behavior that really should not
> occur because they could affect many patches in the future, such as:
>
> - trying to argue regressions away - i.e. not 'shutting up' in time,
> being a meta hindrance to problem resolution
>
> - doing a sloppy Git flow, repeatedly
>
> - not testing adequately, especially when the pull request occurs at a
> critical time (such as a couple of hours before -rc1)
>
> - [ and many other meta mistakes ]
>
> None of those arguments are about code and still I fully expect Linus to
> pin those on me if he notices a meta bug in my behavior and finds it
> dangerous.
And note that whenever I or a fellow -tip maintainer got such an unhappy
complaint from Linus in the past couple of years our response wasn't just
to fix some broken code.
Our response was to fix broken top level maintainer behavior, by applying
'meta fixes':
- changing our Git workflow
- adding more scripting to catch bad commits
- changing our flow of sending pull requests, adding fail-safes
- trying to think more neutrally about bug reports to avoid punishing
the messenger and to avoid arguing regressions away
- hardening our review process
- making sure at least one -tip maintainer watches lkml for bugreports
- tightening our controls to avoid missed patches
- thinking about the timing of pull requests
- etc., etc.
(And there's an even larger body of 'meta fixes' we applied without being
prodded by Linus.)
On the outside such incidents look like as if Linus flamed 'the person' in
a disrespectful way.
What Linus _really_ flamed us for in 95% of the cases was the meta
process, the 'meta code' of Linux, which is not actual source code but
mostly a social construct, informal patterns of human behavior - and those
are inextricably embedded in the person.
And because the 'meta fixes' too are often of social nature, what you see
when reading lkml is just a unidirectional stream of complaints from
Linus. You typically don't see patch notifications of changed behavior.
Nor do you see top level maintainers 'speaking up against Linus' very
often: these are bugreports from Linus and we simply fix them, there's not
much to speak up against.
Linus is very laissez-faire about maintainence, so whenever he _does_
erupt at us (at a clip of ~10,000 commits per cycle that do go in without
any complaint from Linus) it's justified in a large percentage of cases.
So despite the outside appearance this is not top level Linux maintainers
being oppressed by Linus or suffering from some sort of Stockholm Syndrome
:-)
We are just as stubborn as Linus and do speak up against Linus when needed
- it just rarely is necessary - in great part because Linus flames in
public and takes care he is upset for a good reason so he does not have to
walk back on his flame. Public embarrassment cuts both ways.
When Linus's complaint is unjustified top level maintainers _do_ speak up
- see Thomas Gleixner's recent example, which resulted in Linus
apologizing. (It's a rare occurance and we've archived all the emails for
the history books.)
Thanks,
Ingo
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-07-19 10:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 280+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-07-15 15:52 [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 17:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 17:46 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 17:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 18:04 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 18:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 18:46 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 19:07 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 19:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 19:53 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 20:41 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 21:01 ` Kees Cook
2013-07-15 21:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 22:08 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 22:27 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Randy Dunlap
2013-07-15 22:36 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Sarah Sharp
2013-07-15 23:15 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-16 0:17 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 3:14 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-16 3:34 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 3:37 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 4:12 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-16 5:12 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 7:46 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Dan Carpenter
2013-07-15 23:49 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-16 2:43 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Chris Ball
2013-07-16 3:06 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 3:36 ` H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-16 15:49 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-16 16:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 16:58 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-16 17:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 11:48 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-16 19:31 ` H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-17 9:17 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 14:01 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 14:40 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 14:43 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-19 11:59 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-17 14:43 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-17 15:04 ` Anca Emanuel
2013-07-17 15:12 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-19 12:08 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-19 18:42 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-19 18:56 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-19 20:33 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " James Bottomley
2013-07-19 20:43 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-19 23:46 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-19 20:03 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-20 12:35 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-21 1:02 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Daniel Phillips
2013-07-21 1:02 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-24 0:51 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-24 0:51 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-24 1:26 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 1:26 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 1:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 1:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 16:23 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 16:23 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-24 16:50 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 16:50 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 1:48 ` Paul Gortmaker
2013-07-24 1:48 ` Paul Gortmaker
2013-07-24 1:53 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 1:53 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-24 8:57 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-24 8:57 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 14:00 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-25 14:00 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-25 14:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 14:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 14:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-25 14:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-25 22:51 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 22:51 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 23:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 23:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-25 23:44 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-25 23:44 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-26 5:22 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-26 5:22 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-20 17:04 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-07-21 13:22 ` Ric Wheeler
2013-07-23 1:26 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-23 1:39 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-23 2:04 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-17 19:05 ` David Miller
2013-07-17 22:02 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-17 22:49 ` Randy Dunlap
2013-07-17 23:08 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-17 23:19 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-18 0:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-16 22:54 ` Jiri Kosina
2013-07-16 23:03 ` Randy Dunlap
2013-07-16 23:11 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 23:14 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 9:38 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 12:39 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 8:04 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Dan Carpenter
2013-07-16 7:32 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) David Lang
2013-07-16 9:14 ` Olivier Galibert
2013-07-16 21:12 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 21:27 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-16 22:43 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 22:54 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 23:12 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 23:20 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-16 23:31 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Ric Wheeler
2013-07-16 23:53 ` Myklebust, Trond
2013-07-16 23:53 ` Myklebust, Trond
2013-07-17 1:21 ` Ric Wheeler
2013-07-17 1:21 ` Ric Wheeler
2013-07-17 7:36 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-17 14:48 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 15:09 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 17:00 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 17:15 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 17:56 ` Stefano Stabellini
2013-07-17 18:05 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 18:42 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 22:24 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-18 0:29 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-18 4:59 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 17:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 19:02 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 17:57 ` Al Viro
2013-07-17 17:52 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 18:51 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 19:04 ` David Lang
2013-07-17 19:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 20:18 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-19 10:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-17 19:40 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 22:38 ` David Woodhouse
2013-07-17 23:05 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra
2013-07-18 2:40 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-07-18 3:00 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-16 23:38 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 23:46 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 14:01 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Paul Gortmaker
2013-07-17 0:32 ` Jeff Liu
2013-07-17 0:51 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 1:23 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 5:51 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 12:21 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 12:30 ` Ricardo Ferreira
2013-07-17 13:03 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 13:10 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 15:02 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 15:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 22:55 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-07-17 9:15 ` Jeff Liu
2013-07-17 10:58 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-17 11:13 ` Jeff Liu
2013-07-16 23:01 ` Randy Dunlap
2013-07-16 23:50 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-17 0:04 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 1:34 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-17 2:18 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-07-17 3:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 3:16 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-07-17 4:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 5:22 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-17 5:32 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 17:41 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Randy Dunlap
2013-07-17 17:59 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 22:18 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Willy Tarreau
2013-07-16 22:39 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 23:46 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Casey Schaufler
2013-07-17 1:02 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-17 10:10 ` Ramkumar Ramachandra
2013-07-17 14:27 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 18:24 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Luck, Tony
2013-07-17 18:24 ` Luck, Tony
2013-07-17 18:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-17 18:46 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-16 18:11 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Guenter Roeck
2013-07-15 22:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 22:50 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 4:03 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML David Ahern
2013-07-16 20:03 ` [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Martin Steigerwald
2013-07-16 1:02 ` Raymond Jennings
2013-07-16 18:27 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " James Bottomley
2013-07-16 21:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-17 6:14 ` James Bottomley
2013-07-17 21:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-18 2:01 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-07-19 6:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-07-19 16:58 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-16 22:13 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) NeilBrown
2013-07-18 9:05 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Paolo Bonzini
2013-07-19 8:21 ` Dave Chiluk
2013-07-16 3:27 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-16 3:46 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 16:51 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) David Howells
2013-07-18 10:39 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Ingo Molnar
2013-07-18 14:32 ` J. Bruce Fields
2013-07-18 16:07 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-18 16:16 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-18 17:39 ` Felipe Contreras
2013-07-19 9:22 ` mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ingo Molnar
2013-07-19 10:03 ` Ingo Molnar [this message]
2013-07-19 12:16 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-19 19:01 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-19 19:16 ` Martin Steigerwald
2013-07-19 19:17 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-19 20:03 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-22 10:55 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-23 1:07 ` mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes Li Zefan
2013-07-23 1:16 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-22 11:04 ` mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ingo Molnar
2013-07-16 14:30 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-07-16 15:00 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 15:09 ` Kees Cook
2013-07-16 15:27 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-17 18:14 ` open conflicts vs. hidden conflicts (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ingo Molnar
2013-07-17 22:42 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-18 9:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-18 0:42 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review Thomas Gleixner
2013-07-18 3:16 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-18 3:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-18 4:01 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-18 5:03 ` H. Peter Anvin
2013-07-18 6:06 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-18 10:21 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-18 11:35 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-18 13:23 ` Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-18 13:30 ` Maybe it's time to shut this thread down (Was: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Theodore Ts'o
2013-07-18 15:54 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-20 21:35 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Daniel Phillips
2013-07-20 21:35 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-22 21:02 ` Luck, Tony
2013-07-22 21:02 ` Luck, Tony
2013-07-22 21:29 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-22 21:29 ` Daniel Phillips
2013-07-19 21:44 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-22 16:45 ` Kurt H Maier
2013-07-18 4:15 ` [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review CAI Qian
2013-07-18 15:48 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-19 10:35 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-24 10:43 ` Florian Holz
2013-07-16 14:45 ` Alex Elder
2013-07-15 19:17 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-15 19:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-15 19:39 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-15 22:50 ` Raymond Jennings
2013-07-16 4:52 ` Rusty Russell
2013-07-16 21:08 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-16 21:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-16 21:58 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2013-07-16 22:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 5:22 ` Sarah Sharp
2013-07-19 11:10 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-16 21:27 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-16 22:11 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-17 1:02 ` Rusty Russell
2013-07-17 1:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-07-17 1:54 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-17 3:28 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-15 22:40 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-16 6:13 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-16 15:40 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-16 18:18 ` Willy Tarreau
2013-07-16 2:44 ` Li Zefan
2013-07-15 19:05 ` J. Bruce Fields
2013-07-15 19:19 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 23:42 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-15 23:50 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-16 1:54 ` NeilBrown
2013-07-16 2:01 ` Joe Perches
2013-07-21 4:15 ` Rob Landley
2013-07-17 7:01 ` CAI Qian
2013-07-17 8:39 ` Janne Karhunen
2013-07-15 18:22 ` Steven Rostedt
2013-07-15 17:33 ` Darren Hart
2013-07-15 19:04 ` Rob Landley
2013-07-19 11:25 ` Ingo Molnar
2013-07-23 8:26 ` Rogelio Serrano
2013-11-28 14:35 mistakes in code vs. maintainer flow mistakes (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review) Ove Karlsen
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=20130719100342.GA26334@gmail.com \
--to=mingo@kernel.org \
--cc=akpm@linux-foundation.org \
--cc=davej@redhat.com \
--cc=dvhart@linux.intel.com \
--cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=linux@roeck-us.net \
--cc=rostedt@goodmis.org \
--cc=rusty@rustcorp.com.au \
--cc=sarah.a.sharp@linux.intel.com \
--cc=stable@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.