From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
To: "Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@sisk.pl>
Cc: Pekka J Enberg <penberg@cs.helsinki.fi>,
Nigel Cunningham <nigel@nigel.suspend2.net>,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Back to the future.
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:17:37 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.98.0704271612380.9964@woody.linux-foundation.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200704280041.17617.rjw@sisk.pl>
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
>
> > And can you name a _single_ advantage of doing so?
>
> Yes. We have a lot less interdependencies to worry about during the whole
> operation.
That's not an advantage. That's why it has *sucked*.
Trying to freeze kernel threads has _caused_ problems. It has _added_
these interdependencies. It hasn't removed a single dependency at any
time, it has just added new problems!
> 1) if the kernel threads are frozen, we know that they don't hold any locks
> that could interfere with the freezing of device drivers,
> 2) if they are frozen, we know, for example, that they won't call user mode
> helpers or do similar things,
> 3) if they are frozen, we know that they won't submit I/O to disks and
> potentially damage filesystems (suspend2 has much more problems with that
> than swsusp, but still. And yes, there have been bug reports related to it,
> so it's not just my fantasy).
NONE of these are valid explanations at all. You're listing totally
theoretical problems, and ignoring all the _real_ problems that trying to
freeze kernel threads has _caused_.
If you want to control user-mode helpers, you do that - you do not freeze
kernel threads!
And no, kernel threads do not submit IO to disks on their own. You just
made that up. Yes, they can be involved in that whole disk submission
thing, but in a good way - they can be required in order to make disk
writing work!
The problem that suspend has had is that it's done everything totally the
wrong way around. Do kernel threads do disk IO? Sure, if asked to do so.
For example, kernel threads can be involved in md etc, but that's a *good*
thing. The way to shut them up is not to freeze the threads, but to freeze
the *disk*.
Linus
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2007-04-27 23:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 136+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2007-04-26 6:04 Back to the future Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 7:28 ` Pekka Enberg
[not found] ` <1177573348.50 25.224.camel@nigel.suspend2.net>
2007-04-26 7:42 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 8:17 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-26 9:28 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 17:29 ` Luca Tettamanti
2007-04-26 16:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 17:03 ` Xavier Bestel
2007-04-26 17:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 20:08 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 20:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 20:50 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 0:10 ` Olivier Galibert
2007-04-27 10:21 ` Daniel Pittman
2007-04-27 23:19 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 21:38 ` Theodore Tso
2007-04-27 10:10 ` Christoph Hellwig
2007-04-26 22:08 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-26 22:20 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 23:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 7:51 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-26 17:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-26 18:22 ` Chase Venters
2007-04-26 18:50 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 19:56 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 4:52 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 6:08 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 6:18 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 6:29 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 6:34 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 6:50 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 7:03 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 7:24 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 9:50 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-04-27 10:12 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-27 19:07 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-04-28 9:22 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-28 13:37 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-05-03 12:06 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-04 21:52 ` Indan Zupancic
2007-05-05 9:16 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-05 12:02 ` Indan Zupancic
2007-04-28 10:35 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 18:43 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 19:37 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 21:24 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 21:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 22:04 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 22:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-27 22:41 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 22:26 ` David Lang
2007-04-27 23:21 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 23:01 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 0:02 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 23:17 ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2007-04-27 23:45 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 23:57 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-27 23:50 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 0:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 6:58 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-04-28 9:16 ` Pekka J Enberg
2007-04-28 18:28 ` David Lang
2007-05-03 17:18 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-07 2:13 ` David Lang
2007-05-07 3:33 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-05-07 12:48 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-07 12:52 ` Oliver Neukum
2007-05-07 14:37 ` david
2007-05-07 19:51 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-07 19:55 ` david
2007-05-07 20:38 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-08 17:36 ` Disconnect
2007-04-27 23:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-05-05 11:42 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-28 0:50 ` Paul Mackerras
2007-04-28 1:00 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 1:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 0:54 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 1:44 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 2:51 ` Daniel Hazelton
2007-04-28 7:00 ` progress meter in s2disk (was Re: Back to the future.) Pavel Machek
2007-04-28 8:50 ` Back to the future Pavel Machek
2007-04-28 9:24 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 16:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 17:50 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 21:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-28 23:03 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 23:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-04-29 0:01 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-29 5:01 ` Bojan Smojver
2007-04-29 3:43 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-04-29 8:57 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-29 8:59 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-29 9:32 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-29 8:23 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-29 9:22 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 18:32 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 19:14 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 18:44 ` David Lang
2007-05-03 15:25 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 22:07 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-28 1:03 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-04-28 1:15 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 0:51 ` David Lang
2007-04-28 1:25 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-05-03 15:10 ` Pavel Machek
2007-05-03 16:53 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-05-04 7:52 ` David Greaves
2007-05-04 13:27 ` Kyle Moffett
2007-04-28 0:18 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2007-04-28 1:00 ` Matthew Garrett
2007-04-28 1:05 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2007-05-03 15:14 ` Pavel Machek
2007-06-01 19:00 ` Eric W. Biederman
2007-04-28 1:08 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 20:44 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-28 19:09 ` Bill Davidsen
2007-04-26 22:40 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 5:41 ` Pekka Enberg
2007-04-27 14:55 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 21:39 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-26 22:42 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-26 22:24 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 23:12 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-26 22:49 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 23:27 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-26 22:56 ` David Lang
2007-04-27 0:23 ` Olivier Galibert
2007-04-27 12:49 ` Pavel Machek
2007-04-27 21:26 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2007-04-27 22:12 ` David Lang
2007-04-26 8:38 ` Jan Engelhardt
2007-04-26 9:33 ` Nigel Cunningham
2007-04-28 0:28 ` Bojan Smojver
[not found] <8e5l8-7SD-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8e6Ka-1uR-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8e6TS-1Id-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8efu9-6mF-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8ekWV-6FF-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8el6y-6Sj-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <8elpT-7wY-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
2007-04-28 11:04 ` Bodo Eggert
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