From: Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@mojatatu.com>
To: David Ahern <dsahern@gmail.com>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
Hangbin Liu <haliu@redhat.com>
Cc: "Andrii Nakryiko" <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>,
"Stephen Hemminger" <stephen@networkplumber.org>,
"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
"Martin KaFai Lau" <kafai@fb.com>,
"Song Liu" <songliubraving@fb.com>, "Yonghong Song" <yhs@fb.com>,
"David Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
"Jesper Dangaard Brouer" <brouer@redhat.com>,
Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
"Jiri Benc" <jbenc@redhat.com>,
"Andrii Nakryiko" <andrii@kernel.org>,
"Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 09:05:48 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1118ef27-3302-d077-021a-43aa8d8f3ebb@mojatatu.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <ec50328d-61ab-71fb-f266-5e49e9dbf98e@gmail.com>
On 2020-11-04 10:19 p.m., David Ahern wrote:
[..]
>
> User experience keeps getting brought up, but I also keep reading the
> stance that BPF users can not expect a consistent experience unless they
> are constantly chasing latest greatest versions of *ALL* S/W related to
> BPF. That is not a realistic expectation for users. Distributions exist
> for a reason. They solve real packaging problems.
>
> As libbpf and bpf in general reach a broader audience, the requirements
> to use, deploy and even tryout BPF features needs to be more user
> friendly and that starts with maintainers of the BPF code and how they
> approach extensions and features. Telling libbpf consumers to make
> libbpf a submodule of their project and update the reference point every
> time a new release comes out is not user friendly.
>
> Similarly, it is not realistic or user friendly to *require* general
> Linux users to constantly chase latest versions of llvm, clang, dwarves,
> bcc, bpftool, libbpf, (I am sure I am missing more), and, by extension
> of what you want here, iproute2 just to upgrade their production kernel
> to say v5.10, the next LTS, or to see what relevant new ebpf features
> exists in the new kernel. As a specific example BTF extensions are added
> in a way that is all or nothing. Meaning, you want to compile kernel
> version X with CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO_BTF enabled, update your toolchain.
> Sure, you are using the latest LTS of $distro, and it worked fine with
> kernel version X-1 last week, but now compile fails completely unless
> the pahole version is updated. Horrible user experience. Again, just an
> example and one I brought up in July. I am sure there more.
>
2cents feedback from a dabbler in ebpf on user experience:
What David described above *has held me back*.
Over time it seems things have gotten better with libbpf
(although a few times i find myself copying includes from the
latest iproute into libbpf). I ended up just doing static links.
The idea of upgrading clang/llvm every 2 months i revisit ebpf is
the most painful. At times code that used to compile just fine
earlier doesnt anymore. There's a minor issue of requiring i install
kernel headers every time i want to run something in samples, etc
but i am probably lacking knowledge on how to ease the pain in that
regard.
I find the loader and associated tooling in iproute2/tc to be quiet
stable (not shiny but works everytime).
And for that reason i often find myself sticking to just tc instead
of toying with other areas.
Slight tangent:
One thing that would help libbpf adoption is to include an examples/
directory. Put a bunch of sample apps for tc, probes, xdp etc.
And have them compile outside of the kernel. Maybe useful Makefiles
that people can cutnpaste from. Every time you add a new feature
put some sample code in the examples.
cheers,
jamal
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-05 14:05 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 167+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-10-23 3:38 [PATCH iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 14:34 ` David Ahern
2020-10-25 15:13 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-25 22:12 ` David Ahern
2020-10-26 8:56 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-26 15:15 ` David Ahern
2020-10-27 2:58 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-24 0:21 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-25 15:11 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-26 8:10 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 21:17 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Alexei Starovoitov
2020-10-28 23:02 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:06 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 2:20 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:45 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 3:00 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 3:17 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 10:26 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 10:51 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-29 2:27 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:33 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:46 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:34 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-10-29 2:50 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 11:38 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-10-29 20:30 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:33 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:26 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-02 15:37 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 5:54 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-03 17:32 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 8:51 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-04 11:09 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 11:40 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-02 15:41 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 5:48 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-03 17:19 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 8:22 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-05 2:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 7:51 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-05 15:25 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 15:57 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-05 16:02 ` David Ahern
2020-11-06 0:56 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-06 0:41 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-02 15:47 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support David Ahern
2020-11-03 6:58 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-03 8:42 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-03 17:45 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 17:48 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-03 8:46 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-03 17:35 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 17:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-03 18:23 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-03 22:32 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 22:55 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 1:40 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 2:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 9:28 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-05 2:39 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 2:17 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-04 3:11 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 10:01 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-04 10:21 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-04 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 13:12 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-04 19:17 ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-04 20:43 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-04 22:24 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-05 20:14 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-05 3:48 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 20:53 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-05 3:19 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 14:05 ` Jamal Hadi Salim [this message]
2020-11-05 21:01 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 15:27 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2020-11-06 21:25 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-10 12:47 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-11 0:53 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-11 11:31 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-11 18:08 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-05 20:45 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 9:00 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-06 21:07 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-04 21:15 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-04 22:10 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 22:35 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 23:05 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-05 20:19 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 8:44 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-06 20:57 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 21:04 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-06 23:25 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-06 23:30 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-07 0:41 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-07 1:07 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 23:38 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 1:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-10 4:09 ` David Ahern
2020-11-11 0:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-11 11:02 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-11 15:06 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-11 16:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-12 22:36 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-12 23:20 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-13 0:04 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-13 0:40 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-13 3:55 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-14 3:26 ` David Ahern
2020-11-16 4:30 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 4:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-11-14 3:24 ` David Ahern
2020-11-16 3:55 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 7:19 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-16 14:54 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-11-16 23:29 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-17 2:37 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-17 3:19 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-17 18:27 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-17 11:56 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-17 3:38 ` David Ahern
2020-11-17 18:19 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-16 16:45 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 1/5] iproute2: add check_libbpf() and get_libbpf_version() Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: make ipvrf able to use libbpf and fix function name conflicts Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:12 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:12 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-25 5:28 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support David Ahern
2020-11-25 5:30 ` patchwork-bot+netdevbpf
2020-11-29 6:16 ` [PATCH " Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-29 6:22 ` Greg KH
2020-11-30 11:39 ` Michal Kubecek
2020-11-29 17:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-29 19:41 ` David Ahern
2020-11-30 11:04 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-01 14:22 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
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