From: Balram Adlakha <b_adlakha@softhome.net>
To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!]
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:39:19 +0530 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20030430190919.GA10263@localhost.localdomain> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20030430172107.GA25347@work.bitmover.com>
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On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 10:21:07AM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 10:53:52AM -0600, Dax Kelson wrote:
> > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >
> > > Your post shows that you think that the reaction is bad and you even say
> > > that the reaction is likely. You vigourously disagree with my conclusions
> > > as to why the reaction is happening, I see that. OK, so let's try it
> > > with a question rather than a statement: why are things like the DMCA and
> > > DRM happening? It isn't the open source guys pushing those, obviously,
> > > it's the corporations. So why are they doing it?
> >
> > DRM/DMCA do nothing to address reimplementation (it can't, see all
> > previous posts on how it is a LEGAL activity).
> >
> > In my observation, DRM/DMCA addresses unauthorized audio and video content
> > copying.
> >
> > So, if Open Source is all about reimplementation, and DRM/DMCA is about
> > "protecting" audio/video content, where is the connection?
>
> "Trusted Computing/Palladium" stuff is clearly headed in the direction
> of encrypting everything, the only place it lands unencrypted is on
> your display. I thought that fell under the heading of DRM but maybe
> I'm mistaken.
>
> I believe the point of that is "huh, people are going to copy our program?
> OK, well, we're a monopoly, you have use our programs to generate the
> data, we encrypt the data and poof! the reimplemented programs are
> worthless".
>
> That line of reasoning, by the way, only works if they are a monopoly,
> i.e., it doesn't work real well for BK, there are lots of other source
> management systems. But it works very well for things like Word,
> that's a de facto standard, contrary to what some people here believe
> it is bloody difficult to negotiate a contract in anything but Word.
> Try sending a lawyer anything else and you'll see what I mean.
>
> So I don't agree that the DRM stuff is all about protecting audio/video
> content at all, I think it goes much further than that. Maybe I'm
> wrong, maybe DRM isn't all about that, but the point remains that there
> is lots of activity in the directions I'm describing and whether it
> falls under DRM, DMCA, Trusted Computing, Palladium, of BuzzWord2000,
> the activity exists. And I think it exists at least in part because
> of the threat of the open source reimplementations. I'm starting to
> think I'm the only person on this list who thinks that, that may be,
> but in the business world that I move in pretty much everyone thinks that.
>
> The open source thing is a new twist, it's changing the playing field.
> That can be good (it has been so far) but it can be bad too if the
> corporations get all paranoid, which is what they look like to me.
>
> What you do about it is an open question. My thought has been to focus
> on creating new stuff that creates its own world of users and advocates.
> Going back to Word, if there was a word processing system that was better
> than Word and people switched to it, then any attempt by Microsoft to lock
> up the data is irrelevant. Apply that pattern to any application which
> operates on data - if you let any corporation have the best technology and
> become a monopoly then they can lock up the data and you're shut out of
> the game. That's one of the reasons I sort of think the BK clone attempts
> are pointless, we can change the file format or encrypt it and unless
> there is some other compelling reason to use the clone, it's irrelevant.
> On the other hand, make something different and better and BK becomes
> irrelevant (unless we do leapfrog with some new feature/whatever).
>
> That's what I meant by chasing. If you are chasing the leader you are
> automatically more at risk because you are trying to play in the leader's
> playing field and they can change the rules to screw you up. You build
> a better playing field and you turn the tables, now the leader is the
> follower and they have to play by your rules.
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
> -
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> Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
What about the people who cannot use bk because the license doesn't permit
them?They feed off the hourly kernel.org snapshots?
The BK clone doesn't have to be a clone always, but it has to start off with
that coz thats what is being used for linux currently. Maybe that won't be
requiredif you change the license to a bit more friendlier one.
This thread has become a few metres long now, but it as simple as 'open source
for better software, hidden source for better chances of making money'
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-04-30 18:58 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 148+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2003-04-30 13:11 Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 13:59 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 14:49 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 16:01 ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-30 16:53 ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-30 17:21 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 17:45 ` Jim Penny
2003-04-30 19:09 ` Balram Adlakha [this message]
2003-04-30 19:58 ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-01 2:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 3:39 ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-09 11:04 ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-09 23:17 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 20:00 ` Dax Kelson
2003-05-01 11:44 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-02 19:00 ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-05-02 23:10 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-03 19:25 ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-06 11:25 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-06 12:13 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-09 10:59 ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-01 12:09 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 18:01 ` Gerhard Mack
2003-05-01 12:12 ` Beating the Monopoly [was: Why DRM exists] Scott Robert Ladd
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-05-01 23:40 Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 19:06 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 3:16 Tom Lord
2003-04-30 18:39 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 16:21 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:53 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 14:52 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 15:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:55 ` Jeff Randall
2003-05-01 12:43 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 18:19 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:20 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:41 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:53 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:55 ` viro
2003-04-30 20:09 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 18:58 ` Edgar Toernig
2003-04-30 22:43 ` Paul Mackerras
2003-05-01 1:03 ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 12:27 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 13:11 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-05-01 17:40 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-27 17:59 James Bottomley
2003-04-29 14:01 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 16:39 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 17:38 ` James Bottomley
2003-04-30 9:43 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-29 23:40 ` Robert White
2003-04-30 1:34 ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-30 10:03 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 20:37 ` Robert White
2003-04-30 20:59 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 9:03 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-05-01 19:49 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 20:27 ` Robert White
2003-05-01 23:08 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 0:54 ` Robert White
2003-05-02 3:10 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 3:34 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 13:43 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 20:48 ` David Schwartz
2003-04-24 3:59 Flame Linus to a crisp! Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 8:37 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24 8:59 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 15:37 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 18:35 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-24 22:29 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 14:21 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 16:59 ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 17:04 ` Ben Collins
2003-04-27 17:34 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 18:41 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-27 17:35 ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 17:49 ` Mirar
2003-04-27 23:15 ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-04-27 17:59 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 21:28 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 1:48 ` rmoser
2003-04-28 9:05 ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 18:07 ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-27 18:35 ` Chris Adams
2003-04-27 18:50 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 19:11 ` Davide Libenzi
2003-04-27 20:13 ` Frank van Maarseveen
2003-04-27 20:34 ` walt
2003-04-27 21:26 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:07 ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-27 22:32 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 22:05 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:28 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 0:06 ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-28 11:03 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 18:06 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-28 9:06 ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-28 14:55 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 20:04 ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-28 20:18 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 20:22 ` Chris Adams
2003-04-28 21:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 21:40 ` Roman Zippel
2003-04-28 22:13 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 22:16 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 0:09 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 4:07 ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-29 5:08 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 16:40 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 21:45 ` Helge Hafting
2003-04-30 9:58 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 15:06 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 5:59 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-04-29 16:41 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 14:35 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:34 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:51 ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 23:53 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 0:00 ` rmoser
[not found] ` <20030428001001.GP23068@work.bitmover.com>
2003-04-28 0:19 ` rmoser
2003-04-28 0:37 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 0:40 ` rmoser
2003-04-28 11:38 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-29 14:21 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:27 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-29 19:56 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 20:35 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-30 8:39 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 18:47 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-27 18:56 ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 19:20 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-27 21:30 ` Jon Portnoy
2003-04-27 21:32 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:36 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 21:56 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:08 ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 22:16 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:35 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:07 ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-28 0:36 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-28 9:57 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-06 15:58 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 14:44 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-07 14:28 ` Alan Cox
2003-05-07 21:40 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 22:16 ` Alan Cox
2003-05-08 0:33 ` Kurt Wall
2003-04-28 11:26 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-05-06 15:59 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-04-28 22:50 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:46 ` Jeffrey Souza
2003-04-29 15:16 ` venom
2003-04-30 9:35 ` Jamie Lokier
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