From: Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org>
To: Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
"Reshetova, Elena" <elena.reshetova@intel.com>,
David Laight <David.Laight@aculab.com>,
Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>, Eric Biggers <ebiggers3@gmail.com>,
"ebiggers@google.com" <ebiggers@google.com>,
"herbert@gondor.apana.org.au" <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"jpoimboe@redhat.com" <jpoimboe@redhat.com>,
"jannh@google.com" <jannh@google.com>,
"Perla, Enrico" <enrico.perla@intel.com>,
"mingo@redhat.com" <mingo@redhat.com>,
"bp@alien8.de" <bp@alien8.de>,
"tglx@linutronix.de" <tglx@linutronix.de>,
"gregkh@linuxfoundation.org" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
"Edgecombe, Rick P" <rick.p.edgecombe@intel.com>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] x86/entry/64: randomize kernel stack offset upon syscall
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:45 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20190512080245.GA7827@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <201905111703.5998DF5F@keescook>
* Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org> wrote:
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 03:45:19PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> > ISTM maybe a better first step would be to make get_random_bytes() be
> > much faster? :)
>
> I'm not opposed to that, but I want to make sure we don't break it for
> "real" crypto uses...
I'm quite sure Andy implied that.
> I still think just using something very simply like rdtsc would be good
> enough.
>
> This isn't meant to be a perfect defense: it's meant to disrupt the
> ability to trivially predict (usually another thread's) stack offset.
But aren't most local kernel exploit attacks against the current task?
Are there any statistics about this?
> And any sufficiently well-positioned local attacker can defeat this no
> matter what the entropy source, given how small the number of bits
> actually ends up being, assuming they can just keep launching whatever
> they're trying to attack. (They can just hold still and try the same
> offset until the randomness aligns: but that comes back to us also
> needing a brute-force exec deterance, which is a separate subject...)
>
> The entropy source bikeshedding doesn't seem helpful given how few bits
> we're dealing with.
The low number of bits is still useful in terms of increasing the
probability of crashing the system if the attacker cannot guess the stack
offset.
With 5 bits there's a ~96.9% chance of crashing the system in an attempt,
the exploit cannot be used for a range of attacks, including spear
attacks and fast-spreading worms, right? A crashed and inaccessible
system also increases the odds of leaving around unfinished attack code
and leaking a zero-day attack.
Thanks,
Ingo
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-05-12 8:02 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 81+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-04-15 6:09 [PATCH] x86/entry/64: randomize kernel stack offset upon syscall Elena Reshetova
2019-04-15 7:25 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-04-15 8:44 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-16 7:34 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-04-16 11:10 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-16 12:08 ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-04-16 12:45 ` David Laight
2019-04-16 15:43 ` Theodore Ts'o
2019-04-16 16:07 ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-04-16 16:47 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-17 9:28 ` David Laight
2019-04-17 15:15 ` Theodore Ts'o
2019-04-17 15:40 ` Kees Cook
2019-04-17 15:53 ` David Laight
2019-04-24 11:42 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-24 13:33 ` David Laight
2019-04-25 11:23 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-26 11:33 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-26 14:01 ` Theodore Ts'o
2019-04-26 17:44 ` Eric Biggers
2019-04-26 18:02 ` Theodore Ts'o
2019-04-27 13:59 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-04-29 8:04 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-26 18:34 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-04-29 7:46 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-29 16:08 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-04-30 17:51 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-30 18:01 ` Kees Cook
2019-05-01 8:23 ` David Laight
2019-05-02 8:07 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-01 8:41 ` David Laight
2019-05-01 23:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-05-02 8:15 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-02 9:23 ` David Laight
2019-05-02 14:47 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-05-02 15:08 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-05-02 16:32 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-05-02 16:43 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-05-03 16:40 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-05-02 16:34 ` David Laight
2019-05-02 16:45 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-05-03 16:17 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-03 16:40 ` David Laight
2019-05-03 19:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2019-05-06 6:47 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-06 7:01 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-08 11:18 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-08 11:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-05-08 13:22 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-09 5:59 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-05-09 7:01 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-09 8:43 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-05-11 22:45 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-05-12 0:12 ` Kees Cook
2019-05-12 8:02 ` Ingo Molnar [this message]
2019-05-12 14:33 ` Kees Cook
2019-05-28 12:28 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-28 13:33 ` Theodore Ts'o
2019-05-29 10:13 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-29 10:51 ` David Laight
2019-05-29 18:35 ` Kees Cook
2019-05-29 18:37 ` Kees Cook
2019-07-29 11:41 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-07-30 18:07 ` Kees Cook
2019-08-01 6:35 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-09 7:03 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-05-06 7:32 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-29 7:49 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-26 17:37 ` Edgecombe, Rick P
2019-04-17 6:24 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-04-16 18:19 ` Reshetova, Elena
[not found] <20190408061358.21288-1-elena.reshetova@intel.com>
2019-04-08 12:49 ` Josh Poimboeuf
2019-04-08 13:30 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-08 16:21 ` Kees Cook
2019-04-10 8:26 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-04-10 9:00 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-10 10:17 ` Ingo Molnar
2019-04-10 10:24 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-10 14:52 ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-04-12 5:36 ` Reshetova, Elena
2019-04-12 21:16 ` Andy Lutomirski
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