From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: "Mickaël Salaün" <mic@digikod.net>,
"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
"Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de>,
"Casey Schaufler" <casey@schaufler-ca.com>,
"Daniel Borkmann" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
"Daniel Mack" <daniel@zonque.org>,
"David Drysdale" <drysdale@google.com>,
"David S . Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
"Elena Reshetova" <elena.reshetova@intel.com>,
"Eric W . Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
"James Morris" <james.l.morris@oracle.com>,
"Kees Cook" <keescook@chromium.org>,
"Paul Moore" <pmoore@redhat.com>,
"Sargun Dhillon" <sargun@sargun.me>,
"Serge E . Hallyn" <serge@hallyn.com>,
"Tejun Heo" <tj@kernel.org>, "Will Drewry" <wad@chromium.org>,
"kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com"
<kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com>,
"Linux API" <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
"LSM List" <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
"Network Development" <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
"open list:CONTROL GROUP (CGROUP)" <cgroups@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC v3 18/22] cgroup,landlock: Add CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS to handle unprivileged hooks
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:08:57 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALCETrXTS8R1E2b9mmWzpOO6QOW5nWYW_RQRJYU1CGRsbNy+Yw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20160915040054.GA65308@ast-mbp.thefacebook.com>
On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:00 PM, Alexei Starovoitov
<alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 07:27:08PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > This RFC handle both cgroup and seccomp approaches in a similar way. I
>> >> > don't see why building on top of cgroup v2 is a problem. Is there
>> >> > security issues with delegation?
>> >>
>> >> What I mean is: cgroup v2 delegation has a functionality problem.
>> >> Tejun says [1]:
>> >>
>> >> We haven't had to face this decision because cgroup has never properly
>> >> supported delegating to applications and the in-use setups where this
>> >> happens are custom configurations where there is no boundary between
>> >> system and applications and adhoc trial-and-error is good enough a way
>> >> to find a working solution. That wiggle room goes away once we
>> >> officially open this up to individual applications.
>> >>
>> >> Unless and until that changes, I think that landlock should stay away
>> >> from cgroups. Others could reasonably disagree with me.
>> >
>> > Ours and Sargun's use cases for cgroup+lsm+bpf is not for security
>> > and not for sandboxing. So the above doesn't matter in such contexts.
>> > lsm hooks + cgroups provide convenient scope and existing entry points.
>> > Please see checmate examples how it's used.
>> >
>>
>> To be clear: I'm not arguing at all that there shouldn't be
>> bpf+lsm+cgroup integration. I'm arguing that the unprivileged
>> landlock interface shouldn't expose any cgroup integration, at least
>> until the cgroup situation settles down a lot.
>
> ahh. yes. we're perfectly in agreement here.
> I'm suggesting that the next RFC shouldn't include unpriv
> and seccomp at all. Once bpf+lsm+cgroup is merged, we can
> argue about unpriv with cgroups and even unpriv as a whole,
> since it's not a given. Seccomp integration is also questionable.
> I'd rather not have seccomp as a gate keeper for this lsm.
> lsm and seccomp are orthogonal hook points. Syscalls and lsm hooks
> don't have one to one relationship, so mixing them up is only
> asking for trouble further down the road.
> If we really need to carry some information from seccomp to lsm+bpf,
> it's easier to add eBPF support to seccomp and let bpf side deal
> with passing whatever information.
>
As an argument for keeping seccomp (or an extended seccomp) as the
interface for an unprivileged bpf+lsm: seccomp already checks off most
of the boxes for safely letting unprivileged programs sandbox
themselves. Furthermore, to the extent that there are use cases for
unprivileged bpf+lsm that *aren't* expressible within the seccomp
hierarchy, I suspect that syscall filters have exactly the same
problem and that we should fix seccomp to cover it.
If I ever add a "seccomp monitor", which is something I want to do
eventually, I think it should work for lsm+bpf as well, which is
another argument for keeping it in seccomp.
--Andy
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2016-09-15 4:09 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-09-14 7:23 [RFC v3 00/22] Landlock LSM: Unprivileged sandboxing Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:23 ` [RFC v3 01/22] landlock: Add Kconfig Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:23 ` [RFC v3 02/22] bpf: Move u64_to_ptr() to BPF headers and inline it Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:23 ` [RFC v3 03/22] bpf,landlock: Add a new arraymap type to deal with (Landlock) handles Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:51 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 23:22 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 23:28 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 21:51 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:53 ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 22:02 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:23 ` [RFC v3 04/22] bpf: Set register type according to is_valid_access() Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-19 14:54 ` Thomas Graf
2016-10-19 15:10 ` Daniel Borkmann
2016-09-14 7:23 ` [RFC v3 05/22] bpf,landlock: Add eBPF program subtype and is_valid_subtype() verifier Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-19 15:01 ` Thomas Graf
2016-09-14 7:23 ` [RFC v3 06/22] landlock: Add LSM hooks Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-19 15:19 ` Thomas Graf
2016-10-19 22:42 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 07/22] landlock: Handle file comparisons Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 19:07 ` Jann Horn
2016-09-14 22:39 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:06 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 23:02 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 23:24 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 21:25 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-20 0:12 ` lsm naming dilemma. " Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-20 1:10 ` Sargun Dhillon
2016-09-20 16:58 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:30 ` Kees Cook
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 08/22] seccomp: Fix documentation for struct seccomp_filter Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 09/22] seccomp: Move struct seccomp_filter in seccomp.h Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 10/22] seccomp: Split put_seccomp_filter() with put_seccomp() Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 11/22] seccomp,landlock: Handle Landlock hooks per process hierarchy Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:43 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-14 22:34 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:52 ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 21:05 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 12/22] bpf: Cosmetic change for bpf_prog_attach() Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 13/22] bpf/cgroup: Replace struct bpf_prog with union bpf_object Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 14/22] bpf/cgroup: Make cgroup_bpf_update() return an error code Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:16 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 15/22] bpf/cgroup: Move capability check Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 16/22] bpf/cgroup,landlock: Handle Landlock hooks per cgroup Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:43 ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 20:58 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-05 21:25 ` Kees Cook
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 17/22] cgroup: Add access check for cgroup_get_from_fd() Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 22:06 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 18/22] cgroup,landlock: Add CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS to handle unprivileged hooks Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:27 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-14 22:11 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-15 1:25 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15 2:19 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 2:27 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15 4:00 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 4:08 ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2016-09-15 4:31 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 4:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15 4:48 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 19:41 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-20 4:37 ` Sargun Dhillon
2016-09-20 17:02 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-15 19:35 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 19/22] landlock: Add interrupted origin Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:29 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-14 22:14 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-15 1:19 ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-10-03 23:46 ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 21:01 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 20/22] landlock: Add update and debug access flags Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 21/22] bpf,landlock: Add optional skb pointer in the Landlock context Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:20 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 22:46 ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 7:24 ` [RFC v3 22/22] samples/landlock: Add sandbox example Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:24 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 14:36 ` [RFC v3 00/22] Landlock LSM: Unprivileged sandboxing David Laight
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