From: Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org>
To: Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:21:27 -0800 (PST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10312112317070.3805-100000@master.linux-ide.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200312112339.41398.rob@landley.net>
Rob,
You know, I would have to say you just waxed my arse all over the mailing
list and left it in the mop bucket for cooling off. The beauty is I can
now laugh about it, and see you are so raw over the issue. Have a case of
chapstick to help smooth over the burn.
It is kind of cool you had an atomic bomb to fry me, if I cared I would
respond in the old ugly manners, but hey I asked for it. Feels like the
the dude in the Memorex commerial.
Cheers,
Andre Hedrick
LAD Storage Consulting Group
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Rob Landley wrote:
> On Thursday 11 December 2003 16:42, Andre Hedrick wrote:
> > Rob,
> >
> > > The fact you personally were off in a corner talking about little green
> > > men from mars is remarkably irrelevant to what I wrote to Hua Zhong (who
> > > I'm fairly certain is not you. His english is better.)
> >
> > Gee, I love the insults. I seriously doubt you have ever paid a lawyer
> > to even have the knowledge to allow you to pump out the bovine piles you
> > are spraying in the air.
>
> I've noticed that you love insults, yes. I believe you've finally found a
> statement that we can both agree on.
>
> > Correct, I am not a lawyer, and you admit you are not one.
>
> Two. Wow. Progress.
>
> > I have paid lawyers for advice and some damn good ones.
> >
> > Can you say the same?
>
> I have paid lawyers for advice. I have been paid BY lawyers. I have hung out
> socially with lawyers. I have studied law for years, although not with the
> aim of acquiring credentials.
>
> Here's a week-long series on intellectual property I wrote for The Motley Fool
> a few years ago. It was reviewed by TMF's legal department, and we went back
> and forth on a couple minor things before it got published.
>
> http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rulemaker000501.htm
> http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rulemaker000502.htm
> http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rulemaker000503.htm
> http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rulemaker000504.htm
> http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rulemaker000505.htm
>
> I've since spotted a couple more minor points that crept past the lawyers who
> reviewed it. I have learned since then. I learned doing it: I still have
> some of the literature I picked up visiting the PTO in washington DC doing
> research for that series. And I learned a lot years before doing it. That's
> just one example that's still online.
>
> I have been paid to explain the standard community interpretation of the GPL
> by at least three different companies' lawyers now. (I started studying the
> GPL and LGPL specifically in 1996, which is really what got me into this
> whole hobby...)
>
> A few years ago I had some fairly extensive email discussions with Richard
> Stallman about copyright and the GPL (even driving to boston to interview him
> in person once). I've had considerably more extensive discussions with Eric
> Raymond (whose wife is a lawyer, and who as president of OSI has been asked
> to review licenses by companies like Apple and IBM...)
>
> Heck, Eric and Cathy are _friends_ of mine. Try "dig www.landley.net" and
> "dig www.thyrsus.com": I'm still borrowing space on the machine in Eric's
> basement because I've been too lazy to arrange a hosting box here in Texas.
> (It's on my to-do list...) I'm mentioned in the introduction of Eric's new
> book because I went to Pennsylvania and crashed on his couch for a month to
> edit the thing. (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/pr01s06.html
> paragraph 2. The "walkthrough" in 0.2 and 0.3 of the revision history was
> _ME_.)
>
> I'm the one who arranged to have a panel at Penguicon on intellectual property
> issues with a real lawyer (Cathy) explaining what the various open source
> licenses mean to attendees (See
> http://penguicon.sourceforge.net/programming.shtml sunday, 10 am, north
> belle). This year's Penguicon will probably have another one, although I'm
> much less involved...
>
> And what I've learned from ALL of that (and far more that's not worth listing
> here) is that there's a reason it's called a legal OPINION, and what you
> generally say isn't "you're wrong" but "I disagree, and here's why". Judges
> give rulings, not lawyers. (And judges' rulings get overturned, don't apply
> to a given case, vary by jurisdiction, etc...)
>
> Lawyers no more universally agree on interpretations of the law then techies
> agree on kernel optimizations. And open source licensing (as a subset of
> intellectual property) is every bit as much a specialty area of the law as
> virtual memory page replacement strategies (a subset of kernel development)
> is a specialty area of programming. (Most lawyers don't really know much
> about it at all, they just know where to look it up. Hence a couple lawyers
> asking me what the community thinks the GPL means. Obviously they don't take
> my opinion as gospel: they go and read the thing themselves, and the law, and
> as much relevant case law as they can find (which ain't much), and then we
> have a back and forth...)
>
> I don't know much about estate planning, tax law, insurance law, or civil
> administrative procedure. I keep forgetting what latin terms like "res
> judicata" mean (god bless Google), and I had to look up "barratry" at the
> start of the SCO thing. But yes, I consider myself competently informed
> about my little niche.
>
> These days, with resources like http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ out
> there, it's not nearly as hard to be up to speed on this as it used to be.
> (You used to have to go to the LIBRARY. And get out BOOKS. And send money
> to Nolo Press every time they got sued. Uphill. Both ways.)
>
> > Can you say the same?
>
> Why would I want to?
>
> I've seen experts in this area. Eben Moglen
> (http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/) and Lawrence Lessig
> (http://www.lessig.org/blog/) come to mind.
>
> I am not an expert here. I am an educated layman. I read things like "Legal
> battles that shaped the computer industry" (by Lawrence D. Graham,
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567201784/026-4037783-2541254 ) for
> fun. Yes, I am weird.
>
> You obviously aren't even an educated layman if you think that simply having
> spoken to a lawyer means that legalness somehow rubbed off on you and gave
> you an aura of absolute truth. Every time I talk to a lawyer, the concept of
> absolute truth in law gets farther and farther away...
>
> Feel free to take that as a suggestion.
>
> Rob
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-12-12 7:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 275+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2003-12-04 23:50 Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Paul Adams
2003-12-05 0:07 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05 2:07 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 15:57 ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05 4:23 ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05 4:42 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05 8:23 ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05 17:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 18:42 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2003-12-05 5:13 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 5:26 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 6:34 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 6:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 11:16 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 13:34 ` Anders Karlsson
2003-12-05 14:03 ` Ryan Anderson
2003-12-05 16:38 ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 16:54 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-05 17:03 ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 22:36 ` Derek Fawcus
2003-12-05 17:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 17:35 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 18:12 ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 18:37 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 19:56 ` 'Filip Van Raemdonck'
2003-12-05 20:26 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-06 0:08 ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 19:55 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 20:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 21:16 ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-09 0:17 ` Kernel 2.6-test10 on an Opteron Ananda Bhattacharya
2003-12-09 12:16 ` Petr Sebor
2003-12-09 20:31 ` bill davidsen
2003-12-08 15:38 ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 14:59 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 19:15 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 18:44 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:09 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 19:22 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-10 13:52 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:32 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 16:34 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 17:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:25 ` Chris Friesen
2003-12-10 17:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:56 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:08 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:17 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:38 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 19:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11 0:50 ` Driver API (was Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?) Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-11 4:01 ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-11 15:47 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-11 22:47 ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-11 10:06 ` viro
2003-12-11 12:47 ` Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-11 13:33 ` viro
2003-12-11 14:54 ` Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-10 18:37 ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-12-10 19:51 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 20:09 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 1:24 ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 7:43 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 8:11 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11 8:37 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 18:22 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11 21:20 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 21:59 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 22:42 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 5:39 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12 7:21 ` Andre Hedrick [this message]
2003-12-12 7:39 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12 7:56 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 9:27 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-10 18:14 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 18:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:48 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11 7:32 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 14:03 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-10 22:49 ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-10 17:15 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 17:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:32 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 22:43 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-10 22:49 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 23:24 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:48 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 21:15 ` viro
2003-12-10 22:36 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 23:13 ` viro
2003-12-11 15:29 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-11 18:47 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11 18:55 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 22:18 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 22:18 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 22:25 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11 1:03 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-11 14:46 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 23:39 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2003-12-11 17:44 ` Robin Rosenberg
2003-12-11 17:56 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-11 18:16 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 18:50 ` Mihai RUSU
2003-12-11 18:37 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-11 12:04 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 17:49 ` Jörn Engel
2003-12-10 18:16 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 19:25 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 15:50 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 18:44 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-06 0:02 ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-05 18:44 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:16 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:02 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 20:37 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-11 16:26 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 13:52 ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-05 0:09 ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-05 10:55 ` Russell King
2003-12-05 0:46 ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05 0:58 ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2003-12-05 1:03 ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05 1:21 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-05 1:30 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 1:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 3:00 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 4:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 5:14 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 5:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 17:14 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 15:38 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 16:47 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-06 21:30 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-06 21:42 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-07 13:01 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-07 22:11 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-06 14:13 ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-06 17:50 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 21:19 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 21:45 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-08 16:34 ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 12:37 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-11 12:42 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 12:58 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-12 20:26 ` Brian Beattie
2003-12-13 12:03 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-13 15:04 ` jeff millar
2003-12-13 17:27 ` Gene Heskett
2003-12-14 0:51 ` Linux, Inc. (Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?) Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14 1:06 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14 2:40 ` David S. Miller
2003-12-14 2:37 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14 6:55 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-14 6:35 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 13:54 ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 15:12 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-05 3:58 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 1:58 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 4:58 ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05 6:34 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 6:43 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 2:07 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 7:39 ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05 1:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 12:57 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:25 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:58 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 19:40 ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-12 22:08 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 23:06 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 23:43 ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-15 18:01 ` Adam Sampson
2003-12-15 21:12 ` Andre Hedrick
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-12-18 9:12 Randy Zagar
2003-12-18 9:51 ` Thorsten Glaser
2003-12-18 9:55 ` Daniel Newby
2003-12-18 14:24 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-19 7:56 ` Andre Hedrick
[not found] <fa.go3ahvi.h68o2q@ifi.uio.no>
[not found] ` <fa.nk4vl6d.g0181@ifi.uio.no>
2003-12-12 3:03 ` walt
2003-12-10 19:06 Manfred Spraul
2003-12-09 6:20 Paul Zimmerman
2003-12-09 13:22 ` Andrew Walrond
2003-12-09 14:12 ` Dale Whitchurch
2003-12-09 20:47 ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 23:47 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 14:30 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 14:17 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 16:10 ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-10 17:58 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 15:01 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-07 2:34 gary ng
2003-12-08 16:08 ` Alex Bennee
2003-12-08 16:26 ` gary ng
2003-12-06 12:31 Matt
2003-12-05 22:43 gary ng
2003-12-05 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 0:07 ` gary ng
[not found] <732BE51FE9901143AE04411A11CC465602F155F3@evtexc02.tc.fluke.com>
2003-12-05 17:05 ` David Dyck
2003-12-05 18:51 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 11:35 Adam J. Richter
2003-12-05 11:25 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 15:36 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
[not found] <YPep.5Y5.21@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <Z3AK-Qw-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-12-04 17:05 ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-04 17:57 ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05 11:11 ` Helge Hafting
2003-12-05 12:12 ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05 14:51 ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-03 23:22 Jason Kingsland
2003-12-03 22:58 Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-12-03 21:31 Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 21:47 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-03 23:33 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 22:11 ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-03 23:33 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 23:40 ` bill davidsen
2003-12-04 0:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04 0:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04 6:25 ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-06 0:08 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06 2:28 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 9:55 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06 10:51 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-08 18:58 ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-09 20:26 ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 21:46 ` Craig Milo Rogers
2003-12-12 11:36 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 15:27 ` Bill Davidsen
2003-12-10 14:09 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 14:25 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 14:46 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:05 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 15:11 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:49 ` Aron Rubin
2003-12-10 15:59 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 16:06 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:22 ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 18:38 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-04 19:24 ` viro
2003-12-13 0:11 ` Nix
2003-12-13 0:25 ` viro
2003-12-13 15:01 ` Nix
2003-12-04 0:29 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-04 0:52 ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04 1:47 ` David Lang
2003-12-04 1:20 ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04 4:48 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-04 15:21 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-04 15:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 1:58 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 2:43 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 13:09 ` Pat Erley
2003-12-05 18:44 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:06 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 13:49 ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-10 13:43 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 16:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:33 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 20:15 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:04 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 21:05 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:17 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 22:59 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 0:58 ` Rob Love
2003-12-11 10:56 ` Xavier Bestel
2003-12-11 7:26 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-05 17:29 ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 17:50 ` Linus Torvalds
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