Re: [PATCH bpf-next 1/4] xdp: Support specifying expected existing program when attaching XDP - Toke Høiland-Jørgensen

From: "Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>
To: Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>
Cc: John Fastabend <john.fastabend@gmail.com>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Martin KaFai Lau <kafai@fb.com>, Song Liu <songliubraving@fb.com>,
	Yonghong Song <yhs@fb.com>, Andrii Nakryiko <andriin@fb.com>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@redhat.com>,
	Lorenz Bauer <lmb@cloudflare.com>, Andrey Ignatov <rdna@fb.com>,
	Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf-next 1/4] xdp: Support specifying expected existing program when attaching XDP
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:23:44 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87h7ye3mf3.fsf@toke.dk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEf4BzYutqP0yAy-KyToUNHM6Z-6C-XaEwK25pK123gejG0s9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:24 AM Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@redhat.com> wrote:
>>
>> Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Fastabend
>> > <john.fastabend@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Jakub Kicinski wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 09:48:10 +0100 Toke Høiland-Jørgensen wrote:
>> >> > > Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org> writes:
>> >> > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 14:13:13 +0100 Toke Høiland-Jørgensen wrote:
>> >> > > >> From: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@redhat.com>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> While it is currently possible for userspace to specify that an existing
>> >> > > >> XDP program should not be replaced when attaching to an interface, there is
>> >> > > >> no mechanism to safely replace a specific XDP program with another.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> This patch adds a new netlink attribute, IFLA_XDP_EXPECTED_FD, which can be
>> >> > > >> set along with IFLA_XDP_FD. If set, the kernel will check that the program
>> >> > > >> currently loaded on the interface matches the expected one, and fail the
>> >> > > >> operation if it does not. This corresponds to a 'cmpxchg' memory operation.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> A new companion flag, XDP_FLAGS_EXPECT_FD, is also added to explicitly
>> >> > > >> request checking of the EXPECTED_FD attribute. This is needed for userspace
>> >> > > >> to discover whether the kernel supports the new attribute.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> Signed-off-by: Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@redhat.com>
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I didn't know we wanted to go ahead with this...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Well, I'm aware of the bpf_link discussion, obviously. Not sure what's
>> >> > > happening with that, though. So since this is a straight-forward
>> >> > > extension of the existing API, that doesn't carry a high implementation
>> >> > > cost, I figured I'd just go ahead with this. Doesn't mean we can't have
>> >> > > something similar in bpf_link as well, of course.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm not really in the loop, but from what I overheard - I think the
>> >> > bpf_link may be targeting something non-networking first.
>> >>
>> >> My preference is to avoid building two different APIs one for XDP and another
>> >> for everything else. If we have userlands that already understand links and
>> >> pinning support is on the way imo lets use these APIs for networking as well.
>> >
>> > I agree here. And yes, I've been working on extending bpf_link into
>> > cgroup and then to XDP. We are still discussing some cgroup-specific
>> > details, but the patch is ready. I'm going to post it as an RFC to get
>> > the discussion started, before we do this for XDP.
>>
>> Well, my reason for being skeptic about bpf_link and proposing the
>> netlink-based API is actually exactly this, but in reverse: With
>> bpf_link we will be in the situation that everything related to a netdev
>> is configured over netlink *except* XDP.
>
> One can argue that everything related to use of BPF is going to be
> uniform and done through BPF syscall? Given variety of possible BPF
> hooks/targets, using custom ways to attach for all those many cases is
> really bad as well, so having a unifying concept and single entry to
> do this is good, no?

Well, it depends on how you view the BPF subsystem's relation to the
rest of the kernel, I suppose. I tend to view it as a subsystem that
provides a bunch of functionality, which you can setup (using "internal"
BPF APIs), and then attach that object to a different subsystem
(networking) using that subsystem's configuration APIs.

Seeing as this really boils down to a matter of taste, though, I'm not
sure we'll find agreement on this :)

>> Other than that, I don't see any reason why the bpf_link API won't work.
>> So I guess that if no one else has any problem with BPF insisting on
>> being a special snowflake, I guess I can live with it as well... *shrugs* :)
>
> Apart from derogatory remark,

Yeah, should have left out the 'snowflake' bit, sorry about that...

> BPF is a bit special here, because it requires every potential BPF
> hook (be it cgroups, xdp, perf_event, etc) to be aware of BPF
> program(s) and execute them with special macro. So like it or not, it
> is special and each driver supporting BPF needs to implement this BPF
> wiring.

All that is about internal implementation, though. I'm bothered by the
API discrepancy (i.e., from the user PoV we'll end up with: "netlink is
what you use to configure your netdev except if you want to attach an
XDP program to it").

-Toke