From: "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" <dgilbert@redhat.com>
To: Markus Armbruster <armbru@redhat.com>
Cc: "Kevin Wolf" <kwolf@redhat.com>,
"Peter Maydell" <peter.maydell@linaro.org>,
"Daniel P. Berrange" <berrange@redhat.com>,
"Denis V. Lunev" <den@virtuozzo.com>,
"Cleber Rosa" <cleber@redhat.com>,
"Stefan Hajnoczi" <stefanha@gmail.com>,
qemu-devel <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
"Marc-André Lureau" <marcandre.lureau@redhat.com>,
"Paolo Bonzini" <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
"Dominik Csapak" <d.csapak@proxmox.com>,
"John Snow" <jsnow@redhat.com>,
"Eduardo Habkost" <ehabkost@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 15:05:01 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200102150501.GA2973@work-vm> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87h81unja8.fsf@dusky.pond.sub.org>
* Markus Armbruster (armbru@redhat.com) wrote:
> Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@gmail.com> writes:
> > 4. Go and Rust bindings would also be useful. There is
> > https://github.com/intel/govmm but I think it makes sense to keep it
> > in qemu.git and provide an interface similar to our Python modules.
>
> Mapping QAPI/QMP commands and events to function signatures isn't hard
> (the QAPI code generator does). Two problems (at least):
>
> 1. Leads to some pretty ridiculous functions. Here's one:
>
> void qmp_blockdev_mirror(bool has_job_id, const char *job_id,
> const char *device,
> const char *target,
> bool has_replaces, const char *replaces,
> MirrorSyncMode sync,
> bool has_speed, int64_t speed,
> bool has_granularity, uint32_t granularity,
> bool has_buf_size, int64_t buf_size,
> bool has_on_source_error,
> BlockdevOnError on_source_error,
> bool has_on_target_error, BlockdevOnError on_target_error,
> bool has_filter_node_name, const char *filter_node_name,
> bool has_copy_mode, MirrorCopyMode copy_mode,
> bool has_auto_finalize, bool auto_finalize,
> bool has_auto_dismiss, bool auto_dismiss,
> Error **errp);
Those might not be as bad when mapped to other languages, all the
bool/value pairs would become Option<...> so that removes that doubling.
The Error ** mechanism should somehow map onto functions returning a
normal Rust Result<> type.
Dave
> We commonly use 'boxed': true for such beasts, which results in
> functions like this one:
>
> void qmp_blockdev_add(BlockdevOptions *arg, Error **errp);
>
> 2. Many schema changes that are nicely backward compatible in QMP are
> anything but in such an "obvious" C API. Adding optional arguments,
> for instance, or changing integer type width. The former is less of
> an issue with 'boxed': true.
>
> Perhaps less of an issue with dynamic languages.
>
> I figure a static language would need much more expressive oomph than C
> to be a good target. No idea how well Go or Rust bindings can work.
>
> > 5. A jailer is needed to isolate the QEMU process and vhost-user
> > device backends using seccomp, Linux namespaces, and maybe
> > SELinux/AppArmor. We used to be able to rely on libvirt for QEMU
> > security, but it's becoming a common task for any device backend and
> > IMO should be its own launcher tool.
>
> Perhaps the libvirt refactoring effort can give us one.
>
> > 6. A configuration file format is sorely needed so that guest
> > configuration can be persisted and easily launched. Today you have to
> > create a shell script that executes a QEMU command-line, but this is
> > suboptimal because sharing executable scripts is dangerous from a
> > security perspective and is hard to parse or modify programmatically.
>
> No argument. There is -readconfig, but it falls way short.
>
> With command line QAPIfication, a real configuration file will be quite
> feasible.
>
> The main reason for the lack of progress there is our dedication to
> backward compatibility. A functional replacement of our CLI is a huge
> task already. Throwing in backward compatibility makes it a daunting
> one. Not least because nobody fully understands all the quirks.
>
> > In many of these areas we already have a partial solution. It just
> > needs more work. I think it would be worth the effort and the mental
> > shift to really providing APIs that are easy to use by applications.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Have I missed things that are needed?
> >
> > Have I included things that are unnecessary?
>
> I feel we need to make up our minds what kind of interface(s) we want to
> provide.
>
> We provide a low-level interface for management applications. I feel we
> need to nail this one. Its QMP part is okay, I think, the CLI part is
> not.
>
> We also try to provide friendlier interfaces for human users. Not only
> do we suck at it, we're also prone to create liabilities for later: much
> of the compatibility woes that have been holding us back are rooted in
> "convenience" features. And don't get me started on the folly of us
> dabbling in GUI.
>
>
--
Dr. David Alan Gilbert / dgilbert@redhat.com / Manchester, UK
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-01-02 15:06 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 183+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-12-20 16:13 Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Stefan Hajnoczi
2019-12-20 21:07 ` Richard W.M. Jones
2020-01-02 11:26 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2019-12-21 9:02 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-12-23 15:04 ` Michal Prívozník
2020-01-07 9:36 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-07 10:55 ` Michal Privoznik
2020-01-07 12:57 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-07 17:53 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2019-12-24 13:41 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-22 22:28 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 7:19 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-23 17:58 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 19:01 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-23 21:07 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 7:59 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-24 10:27 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-24 14:38 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-24 18:23 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 18:30 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 18:48 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 18:52 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 18:58 ` John Snow
2020-01-25 10:18 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 10:18 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 12:48 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 11:56 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 12:04 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-27 20:11 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 22:38 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-28 0:37 ` John Snow
2020-01-28 10:16 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-28 10:39 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 15:36 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 12:25 ` Eric Blake
2020-01-28 10:28 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 12:36 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 12:54 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 13:45 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-31 6:50 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 7:48 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 8:09 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 20:07 ` Andrea Bolognani
2020-02-04 9:58 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 12:27 ` Eric Blake
2020-02-02 9:21 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-02 10:44 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 6:20 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 8:48 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 20:12 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 20:34 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 8:35 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-27 12:13 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 16:18 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-24 9:50 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-25 11:52 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 10:05 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 8:25 ` Tooling to help humans use JSON (was: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 9:06 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 10:00 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 14:35 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 20:29 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-28 10:59 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-05 13:09 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-05 19:09 ` qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy? (Was: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) John Snow
2020-02-05 19:49 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-06 9:40 ` qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy? Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 10:09 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-06 12:11 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 12:15 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-06 18:02 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 21:03 ` John Snow
2020-02-08 7:17 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 14:21 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-06 18:26 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 10:49 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-07 21:23 ` John Snow
2020-02-08 7:25 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 11:59 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-10 12:26 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-06 18:18 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 7:47 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:31 ` Eric Blake
2020-02-08 7:34 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:56 ` John Snow
2020-02-07 20:56 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 20:59 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications John Snow
2020-01-28 10:16 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 19:21 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 6:38 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-25 22:34 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-25 11:55 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-02 14:47 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-16 11:03 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-20 9:55 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-20 13:57 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-25 11:41 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 19:41 ` John Snow
2020-01-02 15:05 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert [this message]
2020-01-13 13:44 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-12-24 13:00 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-02 14:22 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-22 22:42 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 7:21 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-23 10:27 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-23 18:13 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 19:12 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-02 15:10 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-07 17:11 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-08 10:43 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-08 11:40 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-08 13:38 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-14 13:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-14 17:31 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 9:20 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-15 9:34 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 12:15 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-15 12:19 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-15 14:02 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-30 21:09 ` Improving QOM documentation [Was: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications] Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 6:11 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 7:46 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 15:37 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-31 16:28 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 9:50 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 10:35 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-31 11:02 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 15:22 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 17:23 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 8:56 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 9:54 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 15:21 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-04 8:42 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 16:39 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-20 10:08 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-21 5:42 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 11:32 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-21 12:03 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-21 13:36 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI (was: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 14:36 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-21 15:01 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 15:11 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-21 16:21 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 5:16 ` Getting whole-tree patches reviewed and merged (was: Integrating QOM into QAPI) Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:53 ` Getting whole-tree patches reviewed and merged Eric Blake
2020-02-10 11:26 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 16:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 16:12 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 10:50 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI Alex Bennée
2020-01-22 12:24 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-22 12:42 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-22 13:28 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 13:32 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-23 7:37 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-24 18:32 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-25 4:44 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-25 9:28 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-25 21:25 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-26 8:09 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-26 9:11 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-26 16:47 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-26 15:04 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-28 8:00 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 10:03 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-29 12:42 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 9:35 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-15 12:25 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-25 17:18 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 9:30 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-13 16:30 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-04 15:54 ` Summary of " Markus Armbruster
2020-02-05 6:38 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 10:56 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-10 11:01 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:08 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-10 11:29 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:04 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 16:43 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-12 13:54 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-12 14:03 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
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