Re: [PATCH 0/7] i386: Add `machine` parameter to query-cpu-definitions

From: David Hildenbrand <david@redhat.com>
To: "Daniel P. Berrangé" <berrange@redhat.com>
Cc: Thomas Huth <thuth@redhat.com>,
	Janosch Frank <frankja@linux.ibm.com>,
	Cornelia Huck <cohuck@redhat.com>,
	qemu-devel@nongnu.org, Markus Armbruster <armbru@redhat.com>,
	Christian Borntraeger <borntraeger@de.ibm.com>,
	Igor Mammedov <imammedo@redhat.com>,
	Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
	Jiri Denemark <jdenemar@redhat.com>,
	Richard Henderson <rth@twiddle.net>,
	Eduardo Habkost <ehabkost@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/7] i386: Add `machine` parameter to query-cpu-definitions
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 16:23:59 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <7a29438c-572d-5a26-a14f-717a177af4d1@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20191025140310.GB3581@redhat.com>

>>> For example
>>> -machine s390-virtio-ccw-3.1 -cpu z14 will not have the multiple epoch facility
>>> and
>>> -machine s390-virtio-ccw-4.0 -cpu z14 will have the multiple epoch facility.
>>> As migration does always require the tuple of machine and cpu this is save. I fail
>>> to see what the benefit of an explicit z14-3.1 would be.
>>>
>>
>> AFAIKS the only real benefit of versioned CPU models is that you can add new
>> CPU model versions without new QEMU version.
> 
> This is very important for backporting CPU security fixes to existing QEMU
> releases.

I'd say it's not really relevant for backporting per se. It's relevant 
for automatically enabling security fixes when not using the host model. 
That part I understand. Less likely to make mistakes when explicitly 
specifying CPU models.

I once was told that if a user actually specified an explicit CPU model 
in the libvirt XML ("haswell-whatever"), you should not go ahead and 
make any later changes to that model (guest ABI should not change when 
you update/restart the guest ...). So this only applies when creating 
new guests? Or will you change existing model definitions implicitly?

> 
>>
>> Then you can specify "-cpu z13-vX" or "-cpu z13 -cpuv X" (no idea how
>> versioned CPU model were implemented) on any QEMU machine. Which is the same
>> as telling your customer "please use z13,featX=on" in case you have a good
>> reason to not use the host model (along with baselining) but use an explicit
>> model.
>>
>> If you can change the default model of QEMU machines, you can automate this
>> process. I am pretty sure this is a corner case, though (e.g., IBRS).
>> Usually you have a new QEMU machine and can simply enable the new feature
>> from that point on.
> 
> There are now 4 Haswell variants, only some of which are runnable
> on any given host, depending on what microcode the user has installed
> or what particular Haswell silicon SKU the user purchased. Given the
> frequency of new CPU flaws arrived since the first Meltdown/Spectre,
> this isn't a corner case, at least for the x86 world & Intel in
> particular. Other arches/vendors haven't been quite so badly affected
> in this way.

On s390x you can assume that such firmware/microcode updates will be on 
any machine after some time. That is a big difference to x86-64 AFAIK.

> 
> If we tied each new Haswell variant to a machine type, then users would
> be blocked from consuming a new machine type depending on runnability of
> the CPU model. This is not at all desirable, as mgmt apps now have complex
> rules on what machine type they can use.

So you actually want different CPU variants, which you have already, 
just in a different form. (e.g., "haswell" will be mapped to 
"haswell-whatever", just differently via versions)

> 
> When dealing with backporting patches for new CPU hardware flaws, the
> new CPU features are backported to many old QEMU versions. The new
> machine types are not backportable.

That part I understand.

> 
> Both these called for making CPU versioning independant of machine
> type versioning.
> 
> Essentially the goal with CPU versioning is that the user can request
> a bare "Haswell" and libvirt (or the mgmt app) will automatically
> expand this to the best Haswell version that the host is able to
> support with its CPUs / microcode / BIOS config combination.

So if I do a "-cpu haswell -M whatever-machine", as far as I understood 
reading this,  I get the "default CPU model alias for that QEMU machine" 
and *not* the "best Haswell version that the host is able to support".

Or does the default actually also depend on the current host?

-- 

Thanks,

David / dhildenb