From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1760753AbZCPXfz (ORCPT ); Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:35:55 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1754101AbZCPXfp (ORCPT ); Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:35:45 -0400 Received: from emailgw01.pnl.gov ([192.101.109.33]:7408 "EHLO emailgw01.pnl.gov" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752165AbZCPXfo (ORCPT ); Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:35:44 -0400 X-Greylist: delayed 3603 seconds by postgrey-1.27 at vger.kernel.org; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:35:43 EDT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,375,1233561600"; d="scan'208";a="93722935" Subject: Re: How much of a mess does OpenVZ make? ;) Was: What can OpenVZ do? From: Kevin Fox To: Ingo Molnar Cc: "Eric W. Biederman" , containers@lists.linux-foundation.org, hpa@zytor.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Dave Hansen , mpm@selenic.com, linux-mm@kvack.org, tglx@linutronix.de, viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk, linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton , Sukadev Bhattiprolu , Linus Torvalds , Alexey Dobriyan , xemul@openvz.org In-Reply-To: <20090314081207.GA16436@elte.hu> References: <1236891719.32630.14.camel@bahia> <20090312212124.GA25019@us.ibm.com> <604427e00903122129y37ad791aq5fe7ef2552415da9@mail.gmail.com> <20090313053458.GA28833@us.ibm.com> <20090313193500.GA2285@x200.localdomain> <1236981097.30142.251.camel@nimitz><49BADAE5.8070900@cs.columbia.edu> <20090314081207.GA16436@elte.hu> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:33:28 -0700 Message-Id: <1237242808.23841.38.camel@sledge.emsl.pnl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 01:12 -0700, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > * Eric W. Biederman wrote: > > > >> In the OpenVZ case, they've at least demonstrated that the > > >> filesystem can be moved largely with rsync. Unlinked files > > >> need some in-kernel TLC (or /proc mangling) but it isn't > > >> *that* bad. > > > > > > And in the Zap we have successfully used a log-based > > > filesystem (specifically NILFS) to continuously snapshot the > > > file-system atomically with taking a checkpoint, so it can > > > easily branch off past checkpoints, including the file > > > system. > > > > > > And unlinked files can be (inefficiently) handled by saving > > > their full contents with the checkpoint image - it's not a > > > big toll on many apps (if you exclude Wine and UML...). At > > > least that's a start. > > > > Oren we might want to do a proof of concept implementation > > like I did with network namespaces. That is done in the > > community and goes far enough to show we don't have horribly > > nasty code. The patches and individual changes don't need to > > be quite perfect but close enough that they can be considered > > for merging. > > > > For the network namespace that seems to have made a big > > difference. > > > > I'm afraid in our clean start we may have focused a little too > > much on merging something simple and not gone far enough on > > showing that things will work. > > > > After I had that in the network namespace and we had a clear > > vision of the direction. We started merging the individual > > patches and things went well. > > I'm curious: what is the actual end result other than good > looking code? In terms of tangible benefits to the everyday > Linux distro user. [This is not meant to be sarcastic, i'm > truly curious.] >>From an ordinary user perspective, I hate loosing my desktop state every time there is a power bump or a new kernel/video driver comes down from the distro provider. Some of the stuff I loose: *All my terminals *many tabs and windows *each in a different directory *vi *which files I was editing *which function I was coding *screen *scrollback buffer's contents *history for debugging code *command line arguments *State of running apps *web browser *Tabs, yes it saves urls on crash, but sometimes the page cant come back up (say, because of a form) *where the windows are on the desktop *evolution *what folder is selected *which message within the folder is selected *rhythmbox *misc other apps Being able to reboot and get back to exactly where I was before the reboot would save me a lot of time restarting apps and getting my desktop back to where it was before the reboot. I'd also be more inclined to reboot to get security updates more frequently if I didn't loose track of what I was doing in the session, making machines more secure in the process. Kevin PS: Yes, I know both GNOME and KDE have tried to deal with some of this with their session manager stuff, but it doesn't restore everything and only supported by some apps. It would probably take more work to get all apps working with the session management stuff then supporting kernel C/R. > Ingo > _______________________________________________ > Containers mailing list > Containers@lists.linux-foundation.org > https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/containers > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Kevin Fox Subject: Re: How much of a mess does OpenVZ make? ;) Was: What can OpenVZ do? Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:33:28 -0700 Message-ID: <1237242808.23841.38.camel@sledge.emsl.pnl.gov> References: <1236891719.32630.14.camel@bahia> <20090312212124.GA25019@us.ibm.com> <604427e00903122129y37ad791aq5fe7ef2552415da9@mail.gmail.com> <20090313053458.GA28833@us.ibm.com> <20090313193500.GA2285@x200.localdomain> <1236981097.30142.251.camel@nimitz><49BADAE5.8070900@cs.columbia.edu> <20090314081207.GA16436@elte.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-path: In-Reply-To: <20090314081207.GA16436@elte.hu> Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org To: Ingo Molnar Cc: "Eric W. Biederman" , containers@lists.linux-foundation.org, hpa@zytor.com, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Dave Hansen , mpm@selenic.com, linux-mm@kvack.org, tglx@linutronix.de, viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk, linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Andrew Morton , Sukadev Bhattiprolu , Linus Torvalds , Alexey Dobriyan , xemul@openvz.org List-Id: linux-api@vger.kernel.org On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 01:12 -0700, Ingo Molnar wrote: > > * Eric W. Biederman wrote: > > > >> In the OpenVZ case, they've at least demonstrated that the > > >> filesystem can be moved largely with rsync. Unlinked files > > >> need some in-kernel TLC (or /proc mangling) but it isn't > > >> *that* bad. > > > > > > And in the Zap we have successfully used a log-based > > > filesystem (specifically NILFS) to continuously snapshot the > > > file-system atomically with taking a checkpoint, so it can > > > easily branch off past checkpoints, including the file > > > system. > > > > > > And unlinked files can be (inefficiently) handled by saving > > > their full contents with the checkpoint image - it's not a > > > big toll on many apps (if you exclude Wine and UML...). At > > > least that's a start. > > > > Oren we might want to do a proof of concept implementation > > like I did with network namespaces. That is done in the > > community and goes far enough to show we don't have horribly > > nasty code. The patches and individual changes don't need to > > be quite perfect but close enough that they can be considered > > for merging. > > > > For the network namespace that seems to have made a big > > difference. > > > > I'm afraid in our clean start we may have focused a little too > > much on merging something simple and not gone far enough on > > showing that things will work. > > > > After I had that in the network namespace and we had a clear > > vision of the direction. We started merging the individual > > patches and things went well. > > I'm curious: what is the actual end result other than good > looking code? In terms of tangible benefits to the everyday > Linux distro user. [This is not meant to be sarcastic, i'm > truly curious.] >>From an ordinary user perspective, I hate loosing my desktop state every time there is a power bump or a new kernel/video driver comes down from the distro provider. Some of the stuff I loose: *All my terminals *many tabs and windows *each in a different directory *vi *which files I was editing *which function I was coding *screen *scrollback buffer's contents *history for debugging code *command line arguments *State of running apps *web browser *Tabs, yes it saves urls on crash, but sometimes the page cant come back up (say, because of a form) *where the windows are on the desktop *evolution *what folder is selected *which message within the folder is selected *rhythmbox *misc other apps Being able to reboot and get back to exactly where I was before the reboot would save me a lot of time restarting apps and getting my desktop back to where it was before the reboot. I'd also be more inclined to reboot to get security updates more frequently if I didn't loose track of what I was doing in the session, making machines more secure in the process. Kevin PS: Yes, I know both GNOME and KDE have tried to deal with some of this with their session manager stuff, but it doesn't restore everything and only supported by some apps. It would probably take more work to get all apps working with the session management stuff then supporting kernel C/R. > Ingo > _______________________________________________ > Containers mailing list > Containers@lists.linux-foundation.org > https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/containers > > -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@kvack.org. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Don't email: email@kvack.org