From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S933977Ab3GPXxd (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:53:33 -0400 Received: from mx12.netapp.com ([216.240.18.77]:60861 "EHLO mx12.netapp.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1755071Ab3GPXxb (ORCPT ); Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:53:31 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,680,1367996400"; d="scan'208";a="73867068" From: "Myklebust, Trond" To: Ric Wheeler CC: Sarah Sharp , David Lang , "ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Darren Hart , "Ingo Molnar" , Olivier Galibert , "Linux Kernel Mailing List" , stable , Linus Torvalds , Willy Tarreau Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Thread-Topic: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Thread-Index: AQHOgnyhuQh8jTV/+kG8V/CLVwm7h5lob7aA Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:53:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1374018809.2249.29.camel@leira.trondhjem.org> References: <20130715204135.GH15531@xanatos> <1373926109.17876.221.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130715223615.GI15531@xanatos> <20130716211235.GG4994@xanatos> <20130716212704.GB9371@thunk.org> <20130716224357.GK4994@xanatos> <1374015299.6458.76.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130716231217.GL4994@xanatos> <51E5D7C8.5000306@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51E5D7C8.5000306@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1A356B7489707B459725E723C60E3DA4@hq.netapp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by mail.home.local id r6GNrcH9022365 On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 19:31 -0400, Ric Wheeler wrote: > On 07/16/2013 07:12 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:54:59PM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote: > >> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 15:43 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, that's true. Some kernel developers are better at moderating their > >>> comments and tone towards individuals who are "sensitive". Others > >>> simply don't give a shit. So we need to figure out how to meet > >>> somewhere in the middle, in order to establish a baseline of civility. > >> I have to ask this because I'm thick, and don't really understand, > >> but ... > >> > >> What problem exactly are we trying to solve here? > > Personal attacks are not cool Steve. Some people simply don't care if a > > verbal tirade is directed at them. Others do not want anyone to attack > > them personally, but they're fine with people attacking their code. > > > > Bystanders that don't understand the kernel community structure are > > discouraged from contributing because they don't want to be verbally > > abused, and they really don't want to see either personal attacks or > > intense belittling, demeaning comments about code. > > > > In order to make our community better, we need to figure out where the > > baseline of "good" behavior is. We need to define what behavior we want > > from both maintainers and patch submitters. E.g. "No regressions" and > > "don't break userspace" and "no personal attacks". That needs to be > > written down somewhere, and it isn't. If it's documented somewhere, > > point me to the file in Documentation. Hint: it's not there. > > > > That is the problem. > > > > Sarah Sharp > > The problem you are pointing out - and it is a problem - makes us less effective > as a community. Not really. Most of the people who already work as part of this community are completely used to it. We've created the environment, and have no problems with it. Where it could possibly be a problem is when it comes to recruiting _new_ members to our community. Particularly so given that some journalists take a special pleasure in reporting particularly juicy comments and antics. That would tend to scare off a lot of gun-shy newbies. On the other hand, it might tend to bias our recruitment toward people of a more "special" disposition. Perhaps we finally need the services of a social scientist to help us find out... -- Trond Myklebust Linux NFS client maintainer NetApp Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com www.netapp.com {.n++%ݶw{.n+{G{ayʇڙ,jfhz_(階ݢj"mG?&~iOzv^m ?I From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: From: "Myklebust, Trond" To: Ric Wheeler CC: Sarah Sharp , David Lang , "ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Darren Hart , "Ingo Molnar" , Olivier Galibert , "Linux Kernel Mailing List" , stable , Linus Torvalds , Willy Tarreau Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 23:53:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1374018809.2249.29.camel@leira.trondhjem.org> References: <20130715204135.GH15531@xanatos> <1373926109.17876.221.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130715223615.GI15531@xanatos> <20130716211235.GG4994@xanatos> <20130716212704.GB9371@thunk.org> <20130716224357.GK4994@xanatos> <1374015299.6458.76.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130716231217.GL4994@xanatos> <51E5D7C8.5000306@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51E5D7C8.5000306@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1A356B7489707B459725E723C60E3DA4@hq.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: T24gVHVlLCAyMDEzLTA3LTE2IGF0IDE5OjMxIC0wNDAwLCBSaWMgV2hlZWxlciB3cm90ZToNCj4g T24gMDcvMTYvMjAxMyAwNzoxMiBQTSwgU2FyYWggU2hhcnAgd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4gT24gVHVlLCBK dWwgMTYsIDIwMTMgYXQgMDY6NTQ6NTlQTSAtMDQwMCwgU3RldmVuIFJvc3RlZHQgd3JvdGU6DQo+ ID4+IE9uIFR1ZSwgMjAxMy0wNy0xNiBhdCAxNTo0MyAtMDcwMCwgU2FyYWggU2hhcnAgd3JvdGU6 DQo+ID4+DQo+ID4+PiBZZXMsIHRoYXQncyB0cnVlLiAgU29tZSBrZXJuZWwgZGV2ZWxvcGVycyBh cmUgYmV0dGVyIGF0IG1vZGVyYXRpbmcgdGhlaXINCj4gPj4+IGNvbW1lbnRzIGFuZCB0b25lIHRv d2FyZHMgaW5kaXZpZHVhbHMgd2hvIGFyZSAic2Vuc2l0aXZlIi4gIE90aGVycw0KPiA+Pj4gc2lt cGx5IGRvbid0IGdpdmUgYSBzaGl0LiAgU28gd2UgbmVlZCB0byBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IGhvdyB0byBt ZWV0DQo+ID4+PiBzb21ld2hlcmUgaW4gdGhlIG1pZGRsZSwgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8gZXN0YWJsaXNo IGEgYmFzZWxpbmUgb2YgY2l2aWxpdHkuDQo+ID4+IEkgaGF2ZSB0byBhc2sgdGhpcyBiZWNhdXNl IEknbSB0aGljaywgYW5kIGRvbid0IHJlYWxseSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kLA0KPiA+PiBidXQgLi4uDQo+ ID4+DQo+ID4+IFdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbSBleGFjdGx5IGFyZSB3ZSB0cnlpbmcgdG8gc29sdmUgaGVy ZT8NCj4gPiBQZXJzb25hbCBhdHRhY2tzIGFyZSBub3QgY29vbCBTdGV2ZS4gIFNvbWUgcGVvcGxl IHNpbXBseSBkb24ndCBjYXJlIGlmIGENCj4gPiB2ZXJiYWwgdGlyYWRlIGlzIGRpcmVjdGVkIGF0 IHRoZW0uICBPdGhlcnMgZG8gbm90IHdhbnQgYW55b25lIHRvIGF0dGFjaw0KPiA+IHRoZW0gcGVy c29uYWxseSwgYnV0IHRoZXkncmUgZmluZSB3aXRoIHBlb3BsZSBhdHRhY2tpbmcgdGhlaXIgY29k ZS4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEJ5c3RhbmRlcnMgdGhhdCBkb24ndCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSBrZXJuZWwg Y29tbXVuaXR5IHN0cnVjdHVyZSBhcmUNCj4gPiBkaXNjb3VyYWdlZCBmcm9tIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGlu ZyBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkgZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCB0byBiZSB2ZXJiYWxseQ0KPiA+IGFidXNlZCwgYW5k IHRoZXkgcmVhbGx5IGRvbid0IHdhbnQgdG8gc2VlIGVpdGhlciBwZXJzb25hbCBhdHRhY2tzIG9y DQo+ID4gaW50ZW5zZSBiZWxpdHRsaW5nLCBkZW1lYW5pbmcgY29tbWVudHMgYWJvdXQgY29kZS4N Cj4gPg0KPiA+IEluIG9yZGVyIHRvIG1ha2Ugb3VyIGNvbW11bml0eSBiZXR0ZXIsIHdlIG5lZWQg dG8gZmlndXJlIG91dCB3aGVyZSB0aGUNCj4gPiBiYXNlbGluZSBvZiAiZ29vZCIgYmVoYXZpb3Ig aXMuICBXZSBuZWVkIHRvIGRlZmluZSB3aGF0IGJlaGF2aW9yIHdlIHdhbnQNCj4gPiBmcm9tIGJv dGggbWFpbnRhaW5lcnMgYW5kIHBhdGNoIHN1Ym1pdHRlcnMuICBFLmcuICJObyByZWdyZXNzaW9u cyIgYW5kDQo+ID4gImRvbid0IGJyZWFrIHVzZXJzcGFjZSIgYW5kICJubyBwZXJzb25hbCBhdHRh Y2tzIi4gIFRoYXQgbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUNCj4gPiB3cml0dGVuIGRvd24gc29tZXdoZXJlLCBhbmQg aXQgaXNuJ3QuICBJZiBpdCdzIGRvY3VtZW50ZWQgc29tZXdoZXJlLA0KPiA+IHBvaW50IG1lIHRv IHRoZSBmaWxlIGluIERvY3VtZW50YXRpb24uICBIaW50OiBpdCdzIG5vdCB0aGVyZS4NCj4gPg0K PiA+IFRoYXQgaXMgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0uDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBTYXJhaCBTaGFycA0KPiANCj4gVGhl IHByb2JsZW0geW91IGFyZSBwb2ludGluZyBvdXQgLSBhbmQgaXQgaXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtIC0gbWFr ZXMgdXMgbGVzcyBlZmZlY3RpdmUgDQo+IGFzIGEgY29tbXVuaXR5Lg0KDQpOb3QgcmVhbGx5LiBN b3N0IG9mIHRoZSBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIGFscmVhZHkgd29yayBhcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoaXMNCmNvbW11 bml0eSBhcmUgY29tcGxldGVseSB1c2VkIHRvIGl0LiBXZSd2ZSBjcmVhdGVkIHRoZSBlbnZpcm9u bWVudCwgYW5kDQpoYXZlIG5vIHByb2JsZW1zIHdpdGggaXQuDQoNCldoZXJlIGl0IGNvdWxkIHBv c3NpYmx5IGJlIGEgcHJvYmxlbSBpcyB3aGVuIGl0IGNvbWVzIHRvIHJlY3J1aXRpbmcNCl9uZXdf IG1lbWJlcnMgdG8gb3VyIGNvbW11bml0eS4gUGFydGljdWxhcmx5IHNvIGdpdmVuIHRoYXQgc29t ZQ0Kam91cm5hbGlzdHMgdGFrZSBhIHNwZWNpYWwgcGxlYXN1cmUgaW4gcmVwb3J0aW5nIHBhcnRp Y3VsYXJseSBqdWljeQ0KY29tbWVudHMgYW5kIGFudGljcy4gVGhhdCB3b3VsZCB0ZW5kIHRvIHNj YXJlIG9mZiBhIGxvdCBvZiBndW4tc2h5DQpuZXdiaWVzLg0KT24gdGhlIG90aGVyIGhhbmQsIGl0 IG1pZ2h0IHRlbmQgdG8gYmlhcyBvdXIgcmVjcnVpdG1lbnQgdG93YXJkIHBlb3BsZQ0Kb2YgYSBt b3JlICJzcGVjaWFsIiBkaXNwb3NpdGlvbi4gUGVyaGFwcyB3ZSBmaW5hbGx5IG5lZWQgdGhlIHNl cnZpY2VzIG9mDQphIHNvY2lhbCBzY2llbnRpc3QgdG8gaGVscCB1cyBmaW5kIG91dC4uLg0KDQot LSANClRyb25kIE15a2xlYnVzdA0KTGludXggTkZTIGNsaWVudCBtYWludGFpbmVyDQoNCk5ldEFw cA0KVHJvbmQuTXlrbGVidXN0QG5ldGFwcC5jb20NCnd3dy5uZXRhcHAuY29tDQo=