From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_2 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E45DC10DCE for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:23:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fraxinus.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D30C20724 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:23:12 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b="Fn2NQ+Dt"; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1584112712; bh=xNlQBaMJxw+xUPY3kKZXizEko19XrBGpMjrdn37j7V8=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Fn2NQ+DtzV1RuwZsNXqqrERqDuz1PozzcgC3+Q+vnNGFYwO4TvTPtYtPMwkItYO9f Ks7vONNMJthP8OlcqQwGs7YMORZFS/dp2rupG6gXFluO7Ir8pJn+a7hqNwj+bZksUD VFDAbm7SbUIuS/Llq298v8rOtQwllQ1Mc1b2nJJ4= Received: from bedivere.hansenpartnership.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (bedivere.hansenpartnership.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OJPsJR58A3O; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [153.66.254.194] (unknown [50.35.76.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bedivere.hansenpartnership.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC94A8EE10C; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1584112712; bh=xNlQBaMJxw+xUPY3kKZXizEko19XrBGpMjrdn37j7V8=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Fn2NQ+DtzV1RuwZsNXqqrERqDuz1PozzcgC3+Q+vnNGFYwO4TvTPtYtPMwkItYO9f Ks7vONNMJthP8OlcqQwGs7YMORZFS/dp2rupG6gXFluO7Ir8pJn+a7hqNwj+bZksUD VFDAbm7SbUIuS/Llq298v8rOtQwllQ1Mc1b2nJJ4= Message-ID: <1584112710.3391.12.camel@HansenPartnership.com> From: James Bottomley To: Jani Nikula , Steven Rostedt , Geert Uytterhoeven Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <874kusl50q.fsf@intel.com> References: <6d6dd6fa-880f-01fe-6177-281572aed703@labbott.name> <20200312003436.GF1639@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> <20200313031947.GC225435@mit.edu> <87d09gljhj.fsf@intel.com> <20200313093548.GA2089143@kroah.com> <24c64c56-947b-4267-33b8-49a22f719c81@suse.cz> <20200313100755.GA2161605@kroah.com> <20200313103720.GA2215823@kroah.com> <20200313081216.627c5bdf@gandalf.local.home> <874kusl50q.fsf@intel.com> X-Mailer: Evolution 3.26.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Vlastimil Babka , "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- Change to charter X-BeenThere: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Sender: "Ksummit-discuss" On Fri, 2020-03-13 at 16:10 +0200, Jani Nikula wrote: > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:50:45 +0100 > > Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > > > > > > > > Given that before now, there has not be any way to vote for > > > > > > the TAB remotely, it's less restrictive :) > > > > > > > > > > But people without kernel.org accounts could still vote in > > > > > person before, right? > > > > > > > > Yes, and they still can today, this is expanding the pool, not > > > > restricting it. > > > > > > Oh right, assumed we'll still have a conference in person, and > > > unrestricted travel. > > > > Correct. But if we don't change the voting requirements, and the > > conference is canceled, or people are restricted from traveling, > > then those people will not be able to vote with the current > > charter. > > > > We are trying to extend who can vote beyond those that the charter > > allows. We are not preventing those that can vote under the > > current rules from voting. IIUC, we are trying to create absentee > > voting which we never had before. Thus, you can either vote the > > current way by getting travel to wherever Kernel Summit is and > > attending the conference, or we can extend the charter so that if > > you can not come for whatever reason, you have an option to vote > > remotely, if you satisfy the new requirements. Remember, not > > attending means you do not satisfy the current requirements. > > > > The TAB has bikeshed this a bit internally, and came up with the > > conclusion that kernel.org accounts is a very good "first step". If > > this proves to be a problem, we can look at something else. This is > > why we are being a bit vague in the changes so that if something > > better comes along we can switch to that. After some experience in > > various methods (if we try various methods), we could always make > > whatever method works best as an official method at a later time. > > > > But for now, we need to come up with something that makes it hard > > for ballot stuffing, and a kernel.org account (plus activity in the > > kernel) appears to be the best solution we know of. > > Thanks for writing this. I, for one, would welcome more open and > proactive communication from the TAB. > > Have you considered whether the eligibility for running and voting > should be made the same? As it is, absolutely anyone can self- > nominate and run. When the TAB charter was written (in 2006), the original reason was to prevent manipulation (real or imagined) by the committee who would then become the arbiters of nominations and thus able to influence who might run for the TAB. There are a couple of reasons for the electorate clause: when the TAB was formed, it was done by the kernel developers unhappy at the way OSDL (precursor organization to the LF) was behaving with regard to the kernel, who forced their way onto its board and formed the TAB to gain input and control on behalf of kernel developers, so the TAB was formed by kernel developer for kernel developers and, since most other non-kernel open source groups had their own foundation like entities, keeping it kernel only wasn't seen as a problem. The other reason was that OSDL was a bit unhappy to be reformed in this way and we foresaw that one way to dilute the reforming influence of the TAB would be to dilute kernel developer representation since they were the main community interested in that reform. When the OSDL became the LF, some of the initial antagonism and need for reform went away and the elections were opened to the co- located conferences as a sign of improved trust. James _______________________________________________ Ksummit-discuss mailing list Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_2 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE4DC10DCE for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:18:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7DC20724 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:18:35 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b="Fn2NQ+Dt"; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) header.d=hansenpartnership.com header.i=@hansenpartnership.com header.b="Fn2NQ+Dt" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726892AbgCMPSd (ORCPT ); Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:18:33 -0400 Received: from bedivere.hansenpartnership.com ([66.63.167.143]:59024 "EHLO bedivere.hansenpartnership.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726420AbgCMPSd (ORCPT ); Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:18:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bedivere.hansenpartnership.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98BA8EE111; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1584112712; bh=xNlQBaMJxw+xUPY3kKZXizEko19XrBGpMjrdn37j7V8=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Fn2NQ+DtzV1RuwZsNXqqrERqDuz1PozzcgC3+Q+vnNGFYwO4TvTPtYtPMwkItYO9f Ks7vONNMJthP8OlcqQwGs7YMORZFS/dp2rupG6gXFluO7Ir8pJn+a7hqNwj+bZksUD VFDAbm7SbUIuS/Llq298v8rOtQwllQ1Mc1b2nJJ4= Received: from bedivere.hansenpartnership.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (bedivere.hansenpartnership.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OJPsJR58A3O; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [153.66.254.194] (unknown [50.35.76.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bedivere.hansenpartnership.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC94A8EE10C; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1584112712; bh=xNlQBaMJxw+xUPY3kKZXizEko19XrBGpMjrdn37j7V8=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Fn2NQ+DtzV1RuwZsNXqqrERqDuz1PozzcgC3+Q+vnNGFYwO4TvTPtYtPMwkItYO9f Ks7vONNMJthP8OlcqQwGs7YMORZFS/dp2rupG6gXFluO7Ir8pJn+a7hqNwj+bZksUD VFDAbm7SbUIuS/Llq298v8rOtQwllQ1Mc1b2nJJ4= Message-ID: <1584112710.3391.12.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- Change to charter From: James Bottomley To: Jani Nikula , Steven Rostedt , Geert Uytterhoeven Cc: "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Vlastimil Babka , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <874kusl50q.fsf@intel.com> References: <6d6dd6fa-880f-01fe-6177-281572aed703@labbott.name> <20200312003436.GF1639@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> <20200313031947.GC225435@mit.edu> <87d09gljhj.fsf@intel.com> <20200313093548.GA2089143@kroah.com> <24c64c56-947b-4267-33b8-49a22f719c81@suse.cz> <20200313100755.GA2161605@kroah.com> <20200313103720.GA2215823@kroah.com> <20200313081216.627c5bdf@gandalf.local.home> <874kusl50q.fsf@intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.26.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Fri, 2020-03-13 at 16:10 +0200, Jani Nikula wrote: > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:50:45 +0100 > > Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > > > > > > > > Given that before now, there has not be any way to vote for > > > > > > the TAB remotely, it's less restrictive :) > > > > > > > > > > But people without kernel.org accounts could still vote in > > > > > person before, right? > > > > > > > > Yes, and they still can today, this is expanding the pool, not > > > > restricting it. > > > > > > Oh right, assumed we'll still have a conference in person, and > > > unrestricted travel. > > > > Correct. But if we don't change the voting requirements, and the > > conference is canceled, or people are restricted from traveling, > > then those people will not be able to vote with the current > > charter. > > > > We are trying to extend who can vote beyond those that the charter > > allows. We are not preventing those that can vote under the > > current rules from voting. IIUC, we are trying to create absentee > > voting which we never had before. Thus, you can either vote the > > current way by getting travel to wherever Kernel Summit is and > > attending the conference, or we can extend the charter so that if > > you can not come for whatever reason, you have an option to vote > > remotely, if you satisfy the new requirements. Remember, not > > attending means you do not satisfy the current requirements. > > > > The TAB has bikeshed this a bit internally, and came up with the > > conclusion that kernel.org accounts is a very good "first step". If > > this proves to be a problem, we can look at something else. This is > > why we are being a bit vague in the changes so that if something > > better comes along we can switch to that. After some experience in > > various methods (if we try various methods), we could always make > > whatever method works best as an official method at a later time. > > > > But for now, we need to come up with something that makes it hard > > for ballot stuffing, and a kernel.org account (plus activity in the > > kernel) appears to be the best solution we know of. > > Thanks for writing this. I, for one, would welcome more open and > proactive communication from the TAB. > > Have you considered whether the eligibility for running and voting > should be made the same? As it is, absolutely anyone can self- > nominate and run. When the TAB charter was written (in 2006), the original reason was to prevent manipulation (real or imagined) by the committee who would then become the arbiters of nominations and thus able to influence who might run for the TAB. There are a couple of reasons for the electorate clause: when the TAB was formed, it was done by the kernel developers unhappy at the way OSDL (precursor organization to the LF) was behaving with regard to the kernel, who forced their way onto its board and formed the TAB to gain input and control on behalf of kernel developers, so the TAB was formed by kernel developer for kernel developers and, since most other non-kernel open source groups had their own foundation like entities, keeping it kernel only wasn't seen as a problem. The other reason was that OSDL was a bit unhappy to be reformed in this way and we foresaw that one way to dilute the reforming influence of the TAB would be to dilute kernel developer representation since they were the main community interested in that reform. When the OSDL became the LF, some of the initial antagonism and need for reform went away and the elections were opened to the co- located conferences as a sign of improved trust. James From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1584112712; bh=xNlQBaMJxw+xUPY3kKZXizEko19XrBGpMjrdn37j7V8=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Fn2NQ+DtzV1RuwZsNXqqrERqDuz1PozzcgC3+Q+vnNGFYwO4TvTPtYtPMwkItYO9f Ks7vONNMJthP8OlcqQwGs7YMORZFS/dp2rupG6gXFluO7Ir8pJn+a7hqNwj+bZksUD VFDAbm7SbUIuS/Llq298v8rOtQwllQ1Mc1b2nJJ4= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=hansenpartnership.com; s=20151216; t=1584112712; bh=xNlQBaMJxw+xUPY3kKZXizEko19XrBGpMjrdn37j7V8=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Fn2NQ+DtzV1RuwZsNXqqrERqDuz1PozzcgC3+Q+vnNGFYwO4TvTPtYtPMwkItYO9f Ks7vONNMJthP8OlcqQwGs7YMORZFS/dp2rupG6gXFluO7Ir8pJn+a7hqNwj+bZksUD VFDAbm7SbUIuS/Llq298v8rOtQwllQ1Mc1b2nJJ4= Message-ID: <1584112710.3391.12.camel@HansenPartnership.com> From: James Bottomley Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <874kusl50q.fsf@intel.com> References: <6d6dd6fa-880f-01fe-6177-281572aed703@labbott.name> <20200312003436.GF1639@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> <20200313031947.GC225435@mit.edu> <87d09gljhj.fsf@intel.com> <20200313093548.GA2089143@kroah.com> <24c64c56-947b-4267-33b8-49a22f719c81@suse.cz> <20200313100755.GA2161605@kroah.com> <20200313103720.GA2215823@kroah.com> <20200313081216.627c5bdf@gandalf.local.home> <874kusl50q.fsf@intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [Ksummit-discuss] Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Elections -- Change to charter List-Id: Public TAB discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: Jani Nikula , Steven Rostedt , Geert Uytterhoeven Cc: Vlastimil Babka , "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" On Fri, 2020-03-13 at 16:10 +0200, Jani Nikula wrote: > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:50:45 +0100 > > Geert Uytterhoeven wrote: > > > > > > > > Given that before now, there has not be any way to vote for > > > > > > the TAB remotely, it's less restrictive :) > > > > > > > > > > But people without kernel.org accounts could still vote in > > > > > person before, right? > > > > > > > > Yes, and they still can today, this is expanding the pool, not > > > > restricting it. > > > > > > Oh right, assumed we'll still have a conference in person, and > > > unrestricted travel. > > > > Correct. But if we don't change the voting requirements, and the > > conference is canceled, or people are restricted from traveling, > > then those people will not be able to vote with the current > > charter. > > > > We are trying to extend who can vote beyond those that the charter > > allows. We are not preventing those that can vote under the > > current rules from voting. IIUC, we are trying to create absentee > > voting which we never had before. Thus, you can either vote the > > current way by getting travel to wherever Kernel Summit is and > > attending the conference, or we can extend the charter so that if > > you can not come for whatever reason, you have an option to vote > > remotely, if you satisfy the new requirements. Remember, not > > attending means you do not satisfy the current requirements. > > > > The TAB has bikeshed this a bit internally, and came up with the > > conclusion that kernel.org accounts is a very good "first step". If > > this proves to be a problem, we can look at something else. This is > > why we are being a bit vague in the changes so that if something > > better comes along we can switch to that. After some experience in > > various methods (if we try various methods), we could always make > > whatever method works best as an official method at a later time. > > > > But for now, we need to come up with something that makes it hard > > for ballot stuffing, and a kernel.org account (plus activity in the > > kernel) appears to be the best solution we know of. > > Thanks for writing this. I, for one, would welcome more open and > proactive communication from the TAB. > > Have you considered whether the eligibility for running and voting > should be made the same? As it is, absolutely anyone can self- > nominate and run. When the TAB charter was written (in 2006), the original reason was to prevent manipulation (real or imagined) by the committee who would then become the arbiters of nominations and thus able to influence who might run for the TAB. There are a couple of reasons for the electorate clause: when the TAB was formed, it was done by the kernel developers unhappy at the way OSDL (precursor organization to the LF) was behaving with regard to the kernel, who forced their way onto its board and formed the TAB to gain input and control on behalf of kernel developers, so the TAB was formed by kernel developer for kernel developers and, since most other non-kernel open source groups had their own foundation like entities, keeping it kernel only wasn't seen as a problem. The other reason was that OSDL was a bit unhappy to be reformed in this way and we foresaw that one way to dilute the reforming influence of the TAB would be to dilute kernel developer representation since they were the main community interested in that reform. When the OSDL became the LF, some of the initial antagonism and need for reform went away and the elections were opened to the co- located conferences as a sign of improved trust. James