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From: Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@efficios.com>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Cc: Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	"Joel Fernandes, Google" <joel@joelfernandes.org>,
	Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>,
	rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	Valentin Schneider <valentin.schneider@arm.com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
	paulmck <paulmck@linux.ibm.com>,
	Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@gmail.com>,
	Will Deacon <will.deacon@arm.com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/1] Fix: trace sched switch start/stop racy updates
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 21:36:49 -0400 (EDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1642847744.23403.1566005809759.JavaMail.zimbra@efficios.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wh9qDFfWJscAQw_w+obDmZvcE5jWJRdYPKYP6YhgoGgGA@mail.gmail.com>

----- On Aug 16, 2019, at 5:04 PM, Linus Torvalds torvalds@linux-foundation.org wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:49 PM Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> wrote:
>>
>> Can we finally put a foot down and tell compiler and standard committee
>> people to stop this insanity?
> 
> It's already effectively done.
> 
> Yes, values can be read from memory multiple times if they need
> reloading. So "READ_ONCE()" when the value can change is a damn good
> idea.
> 
> But it should only be used if the value *can* change. Inside a locked
> region it is actively pointless and misleading.
> 
> Similarly, WRITE_ONCE() should only be used if you have a _reason_ for
> using it (notably if you're not holding a lock).
> 
> If people use READ_ONCE/WRITE_ONCE when there are locks that prevent
> the values from changing, they are only making the code illegible.
> Don't do it.

I agree with your argument in the case where both read-side and write-side
are protected by the same lock: READ/WRITE_ONCE are useless then. However,
in the scenario we have here, only the write-side is protected by the lock
against concurrent updates, but reads don't take any lock.

If WRITE_ONCE has any use at all (protecting against store tearing and
invented stores), it should be used even with a lock held in this
scenario, because the lock does not prevent READ_ONCE() from observing
transient states caused by lack of WRITE_ONCE() for the update.

So why does WRITE_ONCE exist in the first place ? Is it for documentation
purposes only or are there actual situations where omitting it can cause
bugs with real-life compilers ?

In terms of code change, should we favor only introducing WRITE_ONCE
in new code, or should existing code matching those conditions be
moved to WRITE_ONCE as bug fixes ?

Thanks,

Mathieu

> 
> But in the *absence* of locking, READ_ONCE/WRITE_ONCE is usually a
> good thing.  The READ_ONCE actually tends to matter, because even if
> the value is used only once at a source level, the compiler *could*
> decide to do something else.
> 
> The WRITE_ONCE() may or may not matter (afaik, thanks to concurrency,
> modern C standard does not allow optimistic writes anyway, and we
> wouldn't really accept such a compiler option if it did).
> 
> But if the write is done without locking, it's good practice just to
> show you are aware of the whole "done without locking" part.
> 
>               Linus

-- 
Mathieu Desnoyers
EfficiOS Inc.
http://www.efficios.com

  reply	other threads:[~2019-08-17  1:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 60+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-05-18 10:29 WARNING in tracepoint_probe_register_prio (3) syzbot
2019-08-16  0:11 ` syzbot
2019-08-16 14:26   ` [PATCH 1/1] Fix: trace sched switch start/stop racy updates Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-16 16:25     ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-16 16:48       ` Valentin Schneider
2019-08-16 17:04         ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-16 17:41           ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-16 19:18             ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-16 19:19             ` Alan Stern
2019-08-16 20:44               ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-16 20:49                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2019-08-16 20:57                   ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-16 22:27                     ` Valentin Schneider
2019-08-16 22:57                       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-17  1:41                         ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-17  4:52                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-17  8:28                           ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-17  8:44                             ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-17 15:02                               ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-17 20:03                                 ` Valentin Schneider
2019-08-17 23:00                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-19 10:34                                     ` Valentin Schneider
2019-08-17 22:28                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-20 14:01                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-08-20 20:31                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-20 20:39                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-08-20 20:52                                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-16 21:04                   ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-17  1:36                     ` Mathieu Desnoyers [this message]
2019-08-17  2:13                       ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-17 14:40                         ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-17 15:26                           ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-17 15:55                             ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-17 16:40                               ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-17 22:06                                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-17  8:08                       ` Linus Torvalds
2019-08-20 13:56                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-08-20 20:29                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-21 10:32                             ` Will Deacon
2019-08-21 13:23                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-21 13:32                                 ` Will Deacon
2019-08-21 13:56                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-21 16:22                                     ` Will Deacon
2019-08-21 15:33                                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2019-08-21 15:48                                   ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-21 16:14                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2019-08-21 19:03                                     ` Joel Fernandes
2019-09-09  6:21                           ` Herbert Xu
2019-08-16 20:49                 ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-16 20:59                   ` Joel Fernandes
2019-08-17  1:25                   ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-18  9:15                   ` stable markup was " Pavel Machek
2019-08-16 17:19       ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-16 19:15         ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-17 14:27           ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-17 15:42             ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-17 15:53               ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2019-08-17 16:43                 ` Steven Rostedt
2019-08-16 12:32 ` WARNING in tracepoint_probe_register_prio (3) syzbot
2019-08-16 12:41   ` Sebastian Andrzej Siewior

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