From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ACAC433E0 for ; Tue, 19 May 2020 23:07:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465E620578 for ; Tue, 19 May 2020 23:07:37 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="PfLmuWc5" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 465E620578 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Received: from localhost ([::1]:58136 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbBKi-0001AY-G8 for qemu-devel@archiver.kernel.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 19:07:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49924) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbBK0-0008QX-QY for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 19:06:52 -0400 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-1.mimecast.com ([207.211.31.120]:51117 helo=us-smtp-1.mimecast.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbBJz-0002hV-4K for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 19:06:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1589929609; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=azk1ms+2/lbXdyJ3cAU6xZJ5+b8x6GrSkQs/jRjsctI=; b=PfLmuWc5KMi0b0G/Rhu5xmvFY79lgsjnVlQAMnDZh66qjjT46UB4YCMW4GM/Savz8VOuM5 xTdnCgS1yOOG1vWrm068V4MtgwtsNrkaNwaHR4EtNpmfPdbYBnVyx2dM6AqFt5mm6+A0DG r3nid72ISmDuDs/WxHNKY1REaKLa7jQ= Received: from mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (mimecast-mx01.redhat.com [209.132.183.4]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id us-mta-295-AZ0ZguWjPM6hQ5uX41HBOg-1; Tue, 19 May 2020 19:06:47 -0400 X-MC-Unique: AZ0ZguWjPM6hQ5uX41HBOg-1 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx04.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 759A51800D42; Tue, 19 May 2020 23:06:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.10.112.142] (ovpn-112-142.rdu2.redhat.com [10.10.112.142]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C765D9C5; Tue, 19 May 2020 23:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: QEMU 5.1: Can we require each new device/machine to provided a test? To: =?UTF-8?Q?Daniel_P=2e_Berrang=c3=a9?= References: <96440c8b-7f38-8fc4-0e9c-07ad878211e2@redhat.com> <20200515102321.GH1300305@redhat.com> <613f5cf5-7019-7447-6ba1-8050ab05303a@redhat.com> <20200519090441.GD2003821@redhat.com> From: John Snow Autocrypt: addr=jsnow@redhat.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFTKefwBEAChvwqYC6saTzawbih87LqBYq0d5A8jXYXaiFMV/EvMSDqqY4EY6whXliNO IYzhgrPEe7ZmPxbCSe4iMykjhwMh5byIHDoPGDU+FsQty2KXuoxto+ZdrP9gymAgmyqdk3aV vzzmCa3cOppcqKvA0Kqr10UeX/z4OMVV390V+DVWUvzXpda45/Sxup57pk+hyY52wxxjIqef rj8u5BN93s5uCVTus0oiVA6W+iXYzTvVDStMFVqnTxSxlpZoH5RGKvmoWV3uutByQyBPHW2U 1Y6n6iEZ9MlP3hcDqlo0S8jeP03HaD4gOqCuqLceWF5+2WyHzNfylpNMFVi+Hp0H/nSDtCvQ ua7j+6Pt7q5rvqgHvRipkDDVsjqwasuNc3wyoHexrBeLU/iJBuDld5iLy+dHXoYMB3HmjMxj 3K5/8XhGrDx6BDFeO3HIpi3u2z1jniB7RtyVEtdupED6lqsDj0oSz9NxaOFZrS3Jf6z/kHIf h42mM9Sx7+s4c07N2LieUxcfqhFTaa/voRibF4cmkBVUhOD1AKXNfhEsTvmcz9NbUchCkcvA T9119CrsxfVsE7bXiGvdXnzyGLXdsoosjzwacKdOrVaDmN3Uy+SHiQXo6TlkSdV0XH2PUxTM 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Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200519090441.GD2003821@redhat.com> Content-Language: en-US X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 10.5.11.14 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=207.211.31.120; envelope-from=jsnow@redhat.com; helo=us-smtp-1.mimecast.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/19 17:21:19 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Peter Maydell , Thomas Huth , Eduardo Habkost , "qemu-devel@nongnu.org Developers" , =?UTF-8?Q?Philippe_Mathieu-Daud=c3=a9?= , Markus Armbruster , Gerd Hoffmann , Cleber Rosa , Paolo Bonzini , qemu-discuss@nongnu.org, David Gibson Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: "Qemu-devel" On 5/19/20 5:04 AM, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 03:56:36PM -0400, John Snow wrote: >> >> >> On 5/15/20 6:23 AM, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: >>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:11:17PM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote: >>>> On 07/04/2020 12.59, Philippe Mathieu-Daudé wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> Following Markus thread on deprecating unmaintained (untested) code >>>>> (machines) [1] and the effort done to gather the information shared in >>>>> the replies [2], and the various acceptance tests added, is it >>>>> feasible to require for the next release that each new device/machine >>>>> is provided a test covering it? >>>>> >>>>> If no, what is missing? >>>> >>>> If a qtest is feasible, yes, I think we should require one for new >>>> devices. But what about machines - you normally need a test image for >>>> this. In that case, there is still the question where testing images >>>> could be hosted. Not every developer has a web space where they could >>>> put their test images onto. And what about images that contain non-free >>>> code? >>> >>> Yep, it isn't feasible to make this a hard rule. >>> >>> IMHO this is where a support tier classification comes into play >>> >>> - Tier 1: actively maintained, qtest coverage available. Expected >>> to work reliably at all times since every commit is CI >>> tested >>> >>> - Tier 2: actively maintained, no qtest coverage. Should usually >>> work but regression may creep in due to reliance on the >>> maintainer to manually test on adhoc basis >>> >>> - Tier 3: not actively maintained, unknown state but liable to >>> be broken indefinitely >>> >>> Tier 1 is obviously the most desirable state we would like everthing to >>> be at. Contributors will have to fix problems their patches cause as >>> they will be blocked by CI. >>> >>> Tier 2 is an admission that reality gets in the way. Ideally stuff in >>> this tier will graduate to Tier 1 at some point. Even if it doesn't >>> though, it is still valid to keep it in QEMU long term. Contributors >>> shouldn't gratuitously break stuff in these board, but if they do, >>> then the maintainer is ultimately responsible for fixing it, as the >>> contributors don't have a test rig for it. >>> >>> Tier 3 is abandonware. If a maintainer doesn't appear, users should >>> not expect it to continue to exist long term. Contributors are free >>> to send patches which break this, and are under no obligation to >>> fix problems in these boards. We may deprecate & delete it after a >>> while >>> >>> >>> Over time we'll likely add more criteria to stuff in Tier 1. This >>> could lead to some things dropping from Tier 1 to Tier 2. This is >>> OK, as it doesn't make those things worse than they already were. >>> We're just saying that Tier 2 isn't as thoroughly tested as we >>> would like it to be in an ideal world. >> >> I really like the idea of device support tiers codified directly in the >> QEMU codebase, to give upstream users some idea of which devices we >> expect to work and which we ... don't, really. >> >> Not every last device we offer is enterprise production ready, but we >> don't necessarily do a good job of explaining which devices fall into >> which categories, and we've got quite a few of them. >> >> I wonder if a 2.5th tier would be useful; something like a "hobbyist" >> tier for pet project SoC boards and the like -- they're not abandoned, >> but we also don't expect them to work, exactly. >> >> Mild semantic difference from Tier 3. > > I guess I was thinking such hobbyist stuff would fall into tier 2 if the > hobbyist maintainer actually responds to fixing stuff, or tier 3 if they > largely aren't active on the mailing list responding to issues/questions. > > We add have a 4 tier system overall and put hobbyist stuff at tier 3, > and abandonware at tier 4. > > Probably shouldn't go beyond 4 tiers though, as the more criteria we add > the harder it is to clearly decide which tier something should go into. > > The tier 1 vs 2 divison is clearly split based on CI which is a simple > classification to decide on. > > The tier 2 vs 3 division is moderately clearly split based on whether > there is a frequently active maintainer. > > We can probably squeeze in the 4th tier without too much ambiguity in > the classisfication if we think it is adding something worthwhile either > from our POV as maintainers, or for users consuming it. Yes, I didn't mean to start watering it down into a 1,380 tier system that we're never able to properly utilize. I was thinking more along the lines of: - Device works and is well loved - Device works and is well loved (but we have to test manually) - Device doesn't work, but is well loved (Use at your own peril, please file a bug report) - Device doesn't work, and is unloved Perhaps it'd be clearer to name these Tier 1A, 1B, 2, and 3; where things can shift from 1A to 1B as their test coverage allows, but it's not meant to indicate general status otherwise. Mostly, I would just like some way for users to avoid accidentally running tier 2 or 3 devices /by accident/, or the ability to compile QEMU versions that only allow tier 1 devices to be used. It's all arbitrary -- but I think we agree more than not! I'd love to have a list of first-class boards and devices that we promise to test and have working. --js