From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S965062AbVLJVrL (ORCPT ); Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:47:11 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S965069AbVLJVrK (ORCPT ); Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:47:10 -0500 Received: from lug-owl.de ([195.71.106.12]:13547 "EHLO lug-owl.de") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S965062AbVLJVrJ (ORCPT ); Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:47:09 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:47:07 +0100 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw To: "Jeff V. Merkey" Cc: Helge Hafting , rms@gnu.org, Coywolf Qi Hunt , luke-jr@utopios.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: GNU/Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario Message-ID: <20051210214707.GK13985@lug-owl.de> Mail-Followup-To: "Jeff V. Merkey" , Helge Hafting , rms@gnu.org, Coywolf Qi Hunt , luke-jr@utopios.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <2cd57c900512052358m5b631204i@mail.gmail.com> <200512061856.42493.luke-jr@utopios.org> <2cd57c900512061742s28f57b5eu@mail.gmail.com> <20051210051628.E9E08CF4156@tsurukikun.utopios.org> <439A7E8E.8010707@wolfmountaingroup.com> <20051210164320.GB15986@aitel.hist.no> <20051210190537.GI13985@lug-owl.de> <439B2215.6090408@wolfmountaingroup.com> <20051210191501.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <439B3E36.7090302@wolfmountaingroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="q3YFxXYBXviVjKLs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <439B3E36.7090302@wolfmountaingroup.com> X-Operating-System: Linux mail 2.6.12.3lug-owl X-gpg-fingerprint: 250D 3BCF 7127 0D8C A444 A961 1DBD 5E75 8399 E1BB X-gpg-key: wwwkeys.de.pgp.net X-Echelon-Enable: howto poison arsenous mail psychological biological nuclear warfare test the bombastical terror of flooding the spy listeners explosion sex drugs and rock'n'roll X-TKUeV: howto poison arsenous mail psychological biological nuclear warfare test the bombastical terror of flooding the spy listeners explosion sex drugs and rock'n'roll User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org --q3YFxXYBXviVjKLs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2005-12-10 13:44:38 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > >On Sat, 2005-12-10 11:44:37 -0700, Jeff V. Merkey=20 > > wrote: > >>Two responses from people who live in socialist countries. Sure you=20 > >>agree, it's just status quo from your perspectives. > >Jeff, I'm not sure if we both think about the same things when we talk > >about "socialist", but I guess you may want to have a look at > >Germany's history, as well as the whole newer history (like 50 years) > >of Old Europe... > I'm married to a German citizen and I visit Germany for 3-4 week stints= =20 > once a year. Last year I went to Aachen and Amsterdam on vacation. =20 > Every computer store I visited sold pirated copies of Windows XP and=20 > Microsoft Office and in Amsterdam people were selling copies on the=20 > street corners in the Artis District. Well, so what's your point? Germans and Netherlands tend to steal software? Be it, but thses countries aren't socialistic at all... > The entire culture has absolutely no concept of IP rights and I was=20 > amazed at how open folks are there about piracy. If someone did that in= =20 > the US, they'd > be in jail. I have lived in Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Crete, and= =20 > I spent about 2 years in the UK when I was a younger man, and I have a=20 > really > good handle on the culture over there. Even the republic countries=20 > which have democratic governments are very much socialist in terms of the > lifestyle and the governments, and the way people live, so it's no=20 > surprise the whole concept of free software and the GPL are so natural=20 > to the > culture of Europe in general. What *may* be true is that possibly European mentality towards "Intellectual Property" is somewhat different to the US. I've learned to gain strength by sharing something (esp. knowledge) in a community and not to basically try to de-share knowledge, making it a rare good. Give a man a fish, he'll have food for the day. Teach a man fishing and he'll have food for all his life. You probably know that sentence. You seem to not distinguish between enforced sharing and willfull sharing. That's where the problems arise. > I have been very dismayed at how FOSS has been used as a vehicle to=20 > promote anti-american attitudes into our own culture. It's sad. I have= =20 > lived in > all these places and the only place where people have guaranteed rights= =20 > as individuals and true freedom is America. I was in Germany in the late > 1970's and earlt 1980's when the Bater-Meinhoffs were killing Americans= =20 > in the streets and the Grune-Gehfahr (Green Party) was having=20 > demonstrations burning effigies of Uncle Sam in the Hauptewache District= =20 > in Frankfurt. This younger generation has no concept of what they are= =20 > supporting or how bad things can get. It is the doom of men that they=20 > forget. Really? People, esp. the younger ones, really tend to get quite a lot of political input. Just look at hot political topics that are discussed in the media as well as at the school like the way the US government (as well as some European governments) try to do their nice war against terror and where it affects our daily life. > At any rate, I do understand, and I have a son-in-law in Germany and=20 > grandchildren who speak German and not English (I know what Oh-pa means > and I can always tell them "Ich Habe Dich Leib"), so I do agree the=20 > bonds between countries are becoming more and more blurred. I remember an > older German man in Aachen in a Luftwaffe Uniform watching me with my=20 > grandson in Starbucks try to talk to each other and him smiling at the > thought an American man has grandkids who are totally immersed in the=20 > German culture. At any rate, Stallman needs to in the next GPL incorpora= te > capitalist provisions which will allow FOSS to become a self sustaining= =20 > model. The US markets are abandoning Linux as a commerical offering > and Windows is continuing to get stronger and stronger. It's tough to=20 > embrace technology when people cannot see a future in it. Hardware > purchases aside. I think you totally over-estimate the goal of GPL and/or FOSS. This is what it's *not*: - Kill commercial markets. (Though it'll bring PITA to some commercial vendors that will need to compete with FOSS.) - World domination. (There's always some granny loving Win3.1 so there's always at least one {BSD,Linux,...} compatible computer not running it. Also, would you as a FOSS programmer like to support all these John McDummy users that cannot handle a computer at all?) Though, it is (besides other things): - A lot of *personal* fun for some single, technically-skilled programmers that like to hack software and present their work. - A way to earn money (I've worked at a company using Linux and the whole GNU stack of software for several years). So not the whole worls spins around earning money. A lot of motivation (especially speaking for myself) is just about programming, self-teaching as well as teaching others and allowing others to use my work (for money or not for money), as long as they use my rules (which basically is: use it if you want, don't hide the details and give something back, please.) MfG, JBG --=20 Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw@lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 = _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg = _ _ O f=C3=BCr einen Freien Staat voll Freier B=C3=BCrger" | im Internet! | i= m Irak! 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