From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1MmS84-0003Ok-K0 for mharc-grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:55:00 -0400 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MmS83-0003Lg-7G for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:54:59 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MmS7y-0003Ds-OP for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:54:58 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39728 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MmS7y-0003Dc-LK for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:54:54 -0400 Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:16763) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MmS7y-0008K8-9U for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:54:54 -0400 Received: from xvm-190-8.ghst.net ([217.70.190.8] helo=aybabtu.com) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MmS7x-0006jS-Fj for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 08:54:53 -0400 Received: from [192.168.10.10] (helo=thorin) by aybabtu.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MmS7w-0005NG-Le for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:54:52 +0200 Received: from rmh by thorin with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MmS7w-0002xQ-3L for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:54:52 +0200 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:54:52 +0200 From: Robert Millan To: The development of GRUB 2 Message-ID: <20090912125452.GB11249@thorin> References: <4AA7B690.20909@gmail.com> <1252505468.2998.16.camel@fz.local> <1252587711.2908.38.camel@fz.local> <20090911131709.GC7959@thorin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: free as in freedom X-Message-Flag: Worried about Outlook viruses? Switch to Thunderbird! www.mozilla.com/thunderbird X-Debbugs-No-Ack: true User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-detected-operating-system: by mx20.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) Subject: About firmware facilities X-BeenThere: grub-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: The development of GRUB 2 List-Id: The development of GRUB 2 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 12:54:59 -0000 On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 02:07:10PM -0700, Seth Goldberg wrote: > > I strongly disagree with you in this specific case. Our experience in > Solaris has demonstrated that PXE firmware is surprisingly robust (when > the right combination of API calls (i.e. those tested by Windows) are > used). We have been successfully using PXE-based firmware for netbooting > for many years now, and we would like to continue to do so. Maintaining > a driver collection for NICs is futile, IMHO. Using the firmware that's > there, and that's reliable should be the goal. Not all firmware is our > enemy :). Reliing on proprietary firmware is a compromise. We don't install the blobs ourselves, so we're not responsible for them, but it is still problematic because user has less freedom (firmware bugs is just the most notable consequence of this). So our compromise is to use firmware when we have no other choice, or when the alternative is not reasonable (e.g. not mature or complete enough). My goal as maintainer is to encourage development of a usable and complete driver framework. I'm open to discussion about accepting code for using hardware support from firmware, but keep in mind it's not our primary goal. In the specific case of network hardware, I'm more reluctant because it's a regression compared to what we had in GRUB Legacy. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: "Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all."