From: "Hal V. Engel" <hvengel@astound.net>
To: gimp-print-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: printing-architecture@lists.linux-foundation.org,
Thomas Lianza <TLianza@xrite.com>,
ICC DPWG <digital_photography@lists.color.org>,
"'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
<colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>,
OpenICC Liste <openicc@lists.freedesktop.org>
Subject: Re: [Printing-architecture] [Gimp-print-devel] [Openicc] Colour
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:21 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <200911141256.21251.hvengel@astound.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <8ddb9a960911140305p3672474bv3eefc760dcd67c44@mail.gmail.com>
On Saturday 14 November 2009 03:05:55 am edmund ronald wrote:
> Hi to you too :)
>
> Yes, being able to override any built-in or vendor supplied profile
> is obviously a necessity for power-users, and one which might be
> hidden somewhere in an "Options..." dialog which then allows saving
> named presets.
>
> On the other hand, printer vendors will resist easily accessible
> customisation -just as they resist user-profiling- because convincing
> Jane User that she will only get good color by using the vendor's
> listed media is their main tool to sell their branded expensive media.
>
> Everybody in this cluster :) has conflicting interests; but I wish
> that sane behavior would be *speedily restored * for us color
> consultants and photographers to get on with our life, while the
> solution to the world's printing problems gets debated. Please,
> someone write an utility to patch the driver -it's open source, right?
> - to enable deviceRGB and put us out of our misery.
>
> Edmund
I see that this thread has been expanded to some additional lists and these
folks may not know what this is really about since they are coming into this
in the middle of the thread and just to make sure that they understand where
this is coming from here is a little back ground. This started on the email
list for the OpenPrinting group which is part of the Linux Foundation to
discuss how color management should be handled in the new Common Print Dialog
(CPD). This was quickly expanded to the OpenICC and GutenPrint email lists
since these three lists are the primary communications points for those
working on open source printing and color management. The reason that we are
hashing out these OS/X, ColorSync issues in this thread is that we don't want
to repeat the same mistakes on our open systems as we add color management.
The issues Edmund brings up involve ColorSync, various vendor supplied OS/X
printer drivers and perhaps certain applications (Photoshop has been
mentioned). None of these are open source so the open source community can't
be of much help other than making sure that we don't make the same mistakes on
our systems.
However I think we got a little side tracked and I think we need to refocus on
the original purpose of this thread (IE. how to handle color management in the
CPD). The main thing we should get out of this thread is that there needs to
be a print path that allows for convenient printing of profiling and
calibration targets as well as prematched output so that photographers and
color experts/consultants can do their work without having to jump through all
kinds of (perhaps hard to find) hoops. At the same time end users should not
even see these CM related settings unless they pull up a special part of the
UI that is intended for advanced color management savvy users.
There are clearly two use cases here:
1. Your average user - the vast majority of all printing - KISS principle
applies.
2. Photographers, color experts...
These are very different use cases and they fundamentally conflict with each
other. #1 requires that the UI and work flow be as simple as possible - it has
to work for even the most naive user - where as #2 requires a high degree of
control and a high level of user expertise. I think the tension we are
seeing in this thread is about the conflict between these two use cases.
I also agree with Edmund that it should be possible to allow saving named
presets. The current design of the CPD does this so at this point I think
this is a non-issue for our open systems design since it is already included.
Edmund also mentioned vendor branded media and the fact that much of what we
see in the vendor supplied drivers is designed to force users to purchase that
branded media. This is spot on since in many cases the printer vendors make
almost no money on the sale of the printer (at least on consumer level
devices) but make up for that in spades when they sell their expensive high
profit margin media for the printer. A user might spend only $100 to buy a
consumer level printer but over it's life they might spend 10 or 20 times that
much on paper and ink. That is where these vendors really make their money.
We should not let this get in the way of making sound design choices like it
appears to have on closed systems.
Hal
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Alastair M. Robinson
>
> <blackfive@fakenhamweb.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hi :)
> >
> > Michael Sweet wrote:
> >> I humbly suggest that what you want is a utility that allows the user to
> >> print targets and generate/install ICC profiles for a particular
> >> combination of printer, media, and other settings. If you have to select
> >> a profile at print time, then the printing workflow is broken.
> >
> > I have to disagree here. I have three different "grades" of glossy photo
> > paper here, from different manufacturers. In terms of the amount of ink
> > they'll take, and thus the correct print settings, they're pretty much
> > identical, but prints do look different on each, and they have a very
> > different "feel". Which of the three I use depends on how "prestigious"
> > I want a print to look, traded off against whether I want to use the most
> > expensive paper.
> >
> > Each paper type has (and needs) its own profile, yet the printer driver
> > has no way of telling which of the three I'm using since the print
> > settings are identical. Thus, in my opinion, a printing workflow which
> > doesn't allow me to set a profile at print time is broken.
> >
> > At best the print dialog can select a sane *default* profile, but it's
> > imperative that if the user "knows better" it can be overridden.
> >
> > All the best
> > --
> > Alastair M. Robinson
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
> 30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment -
> and focus on what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's
> new with Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-print-devel mailing list
> Gimp-print-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-11-14 20:56 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 142+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-11-27 16:17 [Printing-architecture] Next OP SC - Mon/Tue - 1/2 December 2008 - please join us Ira McDonald
2008-12-01 21:37 ` Till Kamppeter
2008-12-01 21:39 ` Till Kamppeter
2008-12-01 22:03 ` Norm Jacobs
2008-12-02 21:05 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP SC - Mon/Tue - 1/2 December 2008 - The Recording Till Kamppeter
2009-01-06 0:22 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP SC - Mon/Tue - 5/6 January 2009 " Till Kamppeter
2009-02-03 13:10 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP SC - Mon/Tue - 2/3 February " Till Kamppeter
[not found] ` <200902031351.41688.hvengel@astound.net>
[not found] ` <4988C938.4040205@gmail.com>
2009-02-04 1:11 ` Hal V. Engel
2009-03-10 0:03 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP SC - Mon/Tue - 9/10 March " Till Kamppeter
2009-05-05 6:27 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 4/5 May " Till Kamppeter
2009-06-02 14:17 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 1/2 June " Till Kamppeter
2009-06-02 18:41 ` Hal V. Engel
2009-07-07 22:25 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 7 July " Till Kamppeter
2009-08-19 6:18 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon - 17 Aug " Till Kamppeter
2009-09-10 18:24 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 8 Sep " Till Kamppeter
2009-09-15 0:07 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 14/15 " Till Kamppeter
2009-11-04 9:33 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 3 Nov " Till Kamppeter
2009-11-09 11:14 ` [Printing-architecture] Colour kate price
2009-11-09 23:42 ` Hal V. Engel
2009-11-10 13:32 ` Till Kamppeter
2009-11-11 9:28 ` [Printing-architecture] [Openicc] Colour Kai-Uwe Behrmann
2009-11-11 17:32 ` Hal V. Engel
[not found] ` <25E5CE60-FE48-41E9-B390-DD35452A6F68@colorremedies.com>
[not found] ` <A7277E6D-EAD7-4CD8-AD88-FB803B44EC74@apple.com>
2009-11-13 17:20 ` [Printing-architecture] [Gimp-print-devel] " Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <4810817B-2933-4E6E-82DD-CB87931E917F@apple.com>
2009-11-14 0:39 ` Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <A388F76E-FFCF-49A4-94CB-A3DC103838DA@apple.com>
2009-11-14 10:10 ` Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <259EDC2F-D90C-4A5E-802F-F4C97AB4A08D@apple.com>
2009-11-15 19:32 ` Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <D365548B-A95D-4233-B810-5F0B291C6308@apple.com>
2009-11-16 3:53 ` Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <620c0af50911141715y3c5739ffxf51480387fa0be59@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <77618445-60C9-4D30-99F8-B42DBCCBF24E@apple.com>
2009-11-15 20:12 ` Chris Murphy
2009-11-15 20:26 ` Hal V. Engel
2009-11-16 7:57 ` [Printing-architecture] [Openicc] [Gimp-print-devel] Colour Kai-Uwe Behrmann
2009-11-16 12:09 ` [Printing-architecture] [Gimp-print-devel] [Openicc] Colour kate price
2009-11-16 17:36 ` Kai-Uwe Behrmann
2009-11-16 20:16 ` [Printing-architecture] [Openicc] [Gimp-print-devel] Colour Chris Murphy
2009-11-16 21:31 ` Kai-Uwe Behrmann
[not found] ` <4B01F77E.9090001@gmx.de>
2009-11-17 8:20 ` Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <200911170123.nAH1NDRT016538@dsl092-065-009.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net>
2009-11-17 5:28 ` Kai-Uwe Behrmann
2009-11-17 8:26 ` Chris Murphy
2009-11-17 13:39 ` Kai-Uwe Behrmann
2009-11-16 21:08 ` [Printing-architecture] [Gimp-print-devel] [Openicc] Colour Hal V. Engel
[not found] ` <4AFE4A28.90008@argyllcms.com>
[not found] ` <alpine.LSU.2.00.0911152027440.4678@sirius.rasena>
2009-11-16 18:43 ` [Printing-architecture] [Openicc] [Gimp-print-devel] Colour Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <8ddb9a960911131513ua83b821mad54c09bfe6ba640@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <24965647-EFE8-4F71-961C-1F908CC7B3DF@apple.com>
2009-11-14 10:16 ` [Printing-architecture] [Gimp-print-devel] [Openicc] Colour Alastair M. Robinson
[not found] ` <8ddb9a960911140305p3672474bv3eefc760dcd67c44@mail.gmail.com>
2009-11-14 20:56 ` Hal V. Engel [this message]
[not found] ` <4AFD6C48.8000800@argyllcms.com>
[not found] ` <1CBAEDEF-0F6D-47E2-9CB1-F2D271C803B6@colorremedies.com>
2009-11-14 1:32 ` [Printing-architecture] [Openicc] [Gimp-print-devel] Colour Hal V. Engel
2009-11-14 10:29 ` Chris Murphy
[not found] ` <200911140004.nAE04Qma005051@dsl092-065-009.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net>
[not found] ` <FC7845A4-1F61-4FD7-85AE-A05EF0C448A4@apple.com>
2009-11-14 21:03 ` Hal V. Engel
2009-11-14 23:23 ` [Printing-architecture] [Gimp-print-devel] [Openicc] Colour Alastair M. Robinson
[not found] ` <200911142322.nAENMfHJ021771@dsl092-065-009.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net>
2009-11-14 23:34 ` Alastair M. Robinson
2009-11-24 0:22 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 23/24 Nov 2009 - The Recording Till Kamppeter
2010-01-26 21:14 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 26 Jan 2010 " Till Kamppeter
2010-02-16 22:16 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 16 Feb " Till Kamppeter
2010-02-18 8:24 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Summit Planning Meeting - Wed - 17 " Till Kamppeter
2010-03-02 17:23 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 1/2 Mar " Till Kamppeter
2010-03-17 22:25 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Summit Planning Meeting - Wed - 17 " Till Kamppeter
2010-03-31 16:57 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Summit Planning Meeting - Wed - 31 " Till Kamppeter
2010-05-18 16:49 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 18 May " Till Kamppeter
2010-06-08 18:30 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 8 June " Till Kamppeter
2010-06-14 23:54 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 14/15 Jun " Till Kamppeter
2010-07-13 16:58 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 13 July " Till Kamppeter
2010-08-10 16:42 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 10 August " Till Kamppeter
2010-09-14 17:49 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 14 September " Till Kamppeter
2010-10-12 17:55 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 12 October " Till Kamppeter
2010-11-09 21:49 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 9 November " Till Kamppeter
2010-11-20 0:45 ` Warll Dressler
2010-11-20 8:24 ` Hal V. Engel
2010-11-20 11:38 ` peter sikking
2010-11-30 21:58 ` Till Kamppeter
2010-11-30 22:08 ` Hal V. Engel
2010-12-14 22:52 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 14 December " Till Kamppeter
2011-01-11 8:22 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Mon/Tue - 10/11 January 2011 " Till Kamppeter
2011-01-11 19:34 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 11 " Till Kamppeter
2011-02-16 19:42 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 16 February " Till Kamppeter
2011-03-02 18:42 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 2 March " Till Kamppeter
2011-03-02 19:28 ` Till Kamppeter
2011-05-04 21:09 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 4 May " Till Kamppeter
2011-06-01 17:11 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 1 June " Till Kamppeter
2011-07-13 20:15 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 13 July " Till Kamppeter
2011-08-16 18:42 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 16 August " Till Kamppeter
2011-11-08 12:07 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 14 September " Till Kamppeter
2011-11-08 12:09 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 12 October " Till Kamppeter
2011-11-09 20:22 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 9 November " Till Kamppeter
2012-01-11 18:23 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 11 January 2012 " Till Kamppeter
2012-02-02 16:39 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 1 February " Till Kamppeter
2012-03-07 21:08 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 7 March " Till Kamppeter
2012-03-28 20:56 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Summit Planning Meeting - Wed - 28 " Till Kamppeter
2012-06-13 17:31 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 13 June " Till Kamppeter
2012-09-05 17:14 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 5 September " Till Kamppeter
2012-10-12 7:40 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 10 October " Till Kamppeter
2012-11-17 20:59 ` Till Kamppeter
2013-01-09 19:12 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 9 January 2013 " Till Kamppeter
2013-02-14 0:02 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 13 February " Till Kamppeter
2013-03-06 19:25 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 6 March " Till Kamppeter
2013-04-17 18:14 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 17 April " Till Kamppeter
2013-06-12 16:43 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 12 June " Till Kamppeter
2013-07-10 19:55 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 10 July " Till Kamppeter
2013-09-13 21:32 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 11 Sep " Till Kamppeter
2013-10-02 16:32 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 2 Oct " Till Kamppeter
2013-11-13 18:17 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 13 Nov " Till Kamppeter
2014-01-07 23:23 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 7 Jan 2014 " Till Kamppeter
2014-02-18 19:00 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 18 Feb " Till Kamppeter
2014-03-05 0:30 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 4 Mar " Till Kamppeter
2014-03-20 0:47 ` [Printing-architecture] Linux/MAC PostScript printing and embedded font Shane Lin
2014-04-01 20:19 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 1 Apr 2014 - The Recording Till Kamppeter
2014-05-22 16:19 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 20 May " Till Kamppeter
2014-06-11 13:27 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 10 Jun " Till Kamppeter
2014-07-10 16:08 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 8 Jul " Till Kamppeter
2014-08-19 22:11 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 19 Aug " Till Kamppeter
2014-08-19 22:15 ` Till Kamppeter
2014-09-16 21:13 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 15 Sep " Till Kamppeter
2014-12-09 18:59 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 7 Oct " Till Kamppeter
2014-12-09 18:59 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Wed - 12 Nov " Till Kamppeter
2014-12-09 18:59 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 9 Dec " Till Kamppeter
2015-03-10 19:29 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 10 Mar 2015 " Till Kamppeter
2015-05-12 18:03 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 12 May " Till Kamppeter
2015-06-09 21:12 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 9 Jun " Till Kamppeter
2015-07-07 21:13 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 7 Jul " Till Kamppeter
2015-09-01 20:06 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 1 Sep " Till Kamppeter
2015-11-10 21:27 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 10 Nov " Till Kamppeter
2015-12-01 17:47 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 1 Dec " Till Kamppeter
2016-01-05 17:49 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 5 Jan 2016 " Till Kamppeter
2016-02-02 20:21 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 2 Feb " Till Kamppeter
2016-03-08 18:42 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 8 Mar " Till Kamppeter
2016-04-05 21:59 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 5 Apr " Till Kamppeter
2016-06-14 17:28 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 14 Jun " Till Kamppeter
2016-07-19 19:30 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 19 Jul " Till Kamppeter
2016-08-10 2:13 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 9 Aug " Till Kamppeter
2016-10-04 18:18 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 4 Oct " Till Kamppeter
2016-11-08 18:35 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 8 Nov " Till Kamppeter
2016-12-06 18:27 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 6 Dec " Till Kamppeter
2017-01-10 18:10 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 10 Jan 2017 " Till Kamppeter
2017-03-14 17:47 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 14 Mar " Till Kamppeter
2017-04-11 20:48 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 11 Apr " Till Kamppeter
2017-06-06 17:40 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 6 Jun " Till Kamppeter
2017-07-11 20:17 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 11 Jul " Till Kamppeter
2017-08-01 17:43 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 1 Aug " Till Kamppeter
2017-10-10 17:33 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 10 Oct " Till Kamppeter
2017-12-05 21:29 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 5 Dec " Till Kamppeter
2018-02-19 13:31 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 13 Feb 2018 " Till Kamppeter
2018-03-18 10:05 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 13 Mar " Till Kamppeter
2018-03-18 10:20 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 13 Feb " Till Kamppeter
2018-04-03 19:00 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 3 Apr " Till Kamppeter
2018-06-18 9:34 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 12 Jun " Till Kamppeter
2018-07-19 15:32 ` [Printing-architecture] Last OP Meeting - Tue - 17 Jul " Till Kamppeter
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=200911141256.21251.hvengel@astound.net \
--to=hvengel@astound.net \
--cc=TLianza@xrite.com \
--cc=colorsync-users@lists.apple.com \
--cc=digital_photography@lists.color.org \
--cc=gimp-print-devel@lists.sourceforge.net \
--cc=openicc@lists.freedesktop.org \
--cc=printing-architecture@lists.linux-foundation.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.