From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1760329Ab3GSMIu (ORCPT ); Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:08:50 -0400 Received: from mail-ee0-f54.google.com ([74.125.83.54]:58127 "EHLO mail-ee0-f54.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1760297Ab3GSMIs (ORCPT ); Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:08:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 14:08:41 +0200 From: Ingo Molnar To: Felipe Contreras Cc: Sarah Sharp , Stefano Stabellini , "H. Peter Anvin" , Steven Rostedt , Chris Ball , Darren Hart , Linus Torvalds , Guenter Roeck , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Dave Jones , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , stable , ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Willy Tarreau Subject: Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML Message-ID: <20130719120841.GH26716@gmail.com> References: <1373944014.17876.255.camel@gandalf.local.home> <51E4BFA9.1030600@zytor.com> <1373991399.6458.6.camel@gandalf.local.home> <51E59F79.1040903@zytor.com> <20130717144043.GA16513@xanatos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org * Felipe Contreras wrote: > [...] > > Anyway, through the discussion it has been established that swearing is > rare, most of often directed to the code, and on exceptional occasions > directed to people, when they *deserve* it. And you seem to be implying > that women can't tolerate that, so a change needs to be made in order to > attract more women to the project. Is that correct? While I don't talk for Sarah, the way you have put it is broadly correct (although your formulation is adversarial and leading): most communities dominated by women are hugely offputting to males and communities dominated by males are hugely offputting to women. Open communities dominated by one gender (males in most cases) that want to essentially double their creative brain capacity by attracting the other gender are well advised to try to figure out a solution to that problem. > Personally I don't believe that. Essentially every other open source > project out there, except the Linux kernel, has some kind code of > conduct, whether it's implicit or explicit, and yet they don't have many > developer women either. But fine, let's suppose what you say it's true. Code of conduct is unfortunately not enough - there's many conscious and subconscious dimensions to a community that make it offputting to one gender or the other and once a community becomes a mono-culture by one gender (due to historic gender bias or due to sheer luck) it's (very) hard to change it. > As Linus already pointed out, not everybody has to work with everybody. That's not the point though, the point is to potentially roughly double the creative brain capacity of the Linux kernel project. Even if you don't care about gender fairness, that kind of bona fide benefit to the project is worth a try or two I think ... Thanks, Ingo