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From: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
To: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Cc: Victor Kaplansky <VICTORK@il.ibm.com>,
	Anton Blanchard <anton@samba.org>,
	Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org>,
	Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@gmail.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux PPC dev <linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org>,
	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@polymtl.ca>,
	Michael Ellerman <michael@ellerman.id.au>,
	Michael Neuling <mikey@neuling.org>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 10:04:57 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131031090457.GU19466@laptop.lan> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20131031043258.GQ4126@linux.vnet.ibm.com>

On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 09:32:58PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> Before C/C++11, the closest thing to such a prohibition is use of
> volatile, for example, ACCESS_ONCE().  Even in C/C++11, you have to
> use atomics to get anything resembing this prohibition.
> 
> If you just use normal variables, the compiler is within its rights
> to transform something like the following:
> 
> 	if (a)
> 		b = 1;
> 	else
> 		b = 42;
> 
> Into:
> 
> 	b = 42;
> 	if (a)
> 		b = 1;
> 
> Many other similar transformations are permitted.  Some are used to all
> vector instructions to be used -- the compiler can do a write with an
> overly wide vector instruction, then clean up the clobbered variables
> later, if it wishes.  Again, if the variables are not marked volatile,
> or, in C/C++11, atomic.

While I've heard you tell this story before, my mind keeps boggling how
we've been able to use shared memory at all, all these years.

It seems to me stuff should have broken left, right and center if
compilers were really aggressive about this.

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
To: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Cc: Michael Neuling <mikey@neuling.org>,
	Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@polymtl.ca>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>,
	Linux PPC dev <linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org>,
	Anton Blanchard <anton@samba.org>,
	Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@gmail.com>,
	Victor Kaplansky <VICTORK@il.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 10:04:57 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131031090457.GU19466@laptop.lan> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20131031043258.GQ4126@linux.vnet.ibm.com>

On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 09:32:58PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> Before C/C++11, the closest thing to such a prohibition is use of
> volatile, for example, ACCESS_ONCE().  Even in C/C++11, you have to
> use atomics to get anything resembing this prohibition.
> 
> If you just use normal variables, the compiler is within its rights
> to transform something like the following:
> 
> 	if (a)
> 		b = 1;
> 	else
> 		b = 42;
> 
> Into:
> 
> 	b = 42;
> 	if (a)
> 		b = 1;
> 
> Many other similar transformations are permitted.  Some are used to all
> vector instructions to be used -- the compiler can do a write with an
> overly wide vector instruction, then clean up the clobbered variables
> later, if it wishes.  Again, if the variables are not marked volatile,
> or, in C/C++11, atomic.

While I've heard you tell this story before, my mind keeps boggling how
we've been able to use shared memory at all, all these years.

It seems to me stuff should have broken left, right and center if
compilers were really aggressive about this.

  reply	other threads:[~2013-10-31  9:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 215+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-10-22 23:54 perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Michael Neuling
2013-10-23  7:39 ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-23  7:39   ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-23 14:19 ` Frederic Weisbecker
2013-10-23 14:19   ` Frederic Weisbecker
2013-10-23 14:25   ` Frederic Weisbecker
2013-10-23 14:25     ` Frederic Weisbecker
2013-10-25 17:37   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-25 17:37     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-25 20:31     ` Michael Neuling
2013-10-25 20:31       ` Michael Neuling
2013-10-27  9:00     ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-27  9:00       ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-28  9:22       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-28  9:22         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-28 10:02     ` Frederic Weisbecker
2013-10-28 10:02       ` Frederic Weisbecker
2013-10-28 12:38       ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-28 12:38         ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-28 13:26         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-28 13:26           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-28 16:34           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-28 16:34             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-28 20:17             ` Oleg Nesterov
2013-10-28 20:17               ` Oleg Nesterov
2013-10-28 20:58               ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-28 20:58                 ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-29 10:21                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-29 10:21                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-29 10:30                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-29 10:30                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-29 10:35                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-29 10:35                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-29 20:15                       ` Oleg Nesterov
2013-10-29 20:15                         ` Oleg Nesterov
2013-10-29 19:27                     ` Vince Weaver
2013-10-29 19:27                       ` Vince Weaver
2013-10-30 10:42                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 10:42                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 11:48                         ` James Hogan
2013-10-30 11:48                           ` James Hogan
2013-10-30 12:48                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 12:48                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 13:19                         ` [tip:perf/core] tools/perf: Add required memory barriers tip-bot for Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 13:50                           ` Vince Weaver
2013-11-06 14:00                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 14:28                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 14:55                                 ` Vince Weaver
2013-11-06 15:10                                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 15:23                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 14:44                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 16:07                                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 17:31                                   ` Vince Weaver
2013-11-06 18:24                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-07  8:21                                       ` Ingo Molnar
2013-11-07 14:27                                         ` Vince Weaver
2013-11-07 15:55                                           ` Ingo Molnar
2013-11-11 16:24                                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-11 21:10                                           ` Ingo Molnar
2013-10-29 21:23                     ` perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Michael Neuling
2013-10-29 21:23                       ` Michael Neuling
2013-10-30  9:27                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-30  9:27                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-30 11:25                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 11:25                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 14:52                     ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-30 14:52                       ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-30 15:39                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 15:39                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 17:14                         ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-30 17:14                           ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-30 17:44                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 17:44                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-31  6:16                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  6:16                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 13:12                         ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-01 13:12                           ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-02 16:36                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 16:36                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 17:26                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 17:26                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  6:40                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  6:40                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 14:25                       ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-01 14:25                         ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-02 17:28                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 17:28                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 14:56                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-01 14:56                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-02 17:32                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 17:32                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 14:40                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 14:40                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 15:17                             ` [RFC] arch: Introduce new TSO memory barrier smp_tmb() Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-03 15:17                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-03 18:08                               ` Linus Torvalds
2013-11-03 18:08                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2013-11-03 20:01                                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-03 20:01                                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-03 22:42                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 22:42                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 23:34                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2013-11-03 23:34                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2013-11-04 10:51                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 10:51                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 11:22                                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 11:22                                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 16:27                                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 16:27                                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 16:48                                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 16:48                                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 19:11                                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 19:11                                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 19:18                                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 19:18                                                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 20:54                                                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 20:54                                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 20:53                                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 20:53                                                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-05 14:05                                                 ` Will Deacon
2013-11-05 14:05                                                   ` Will Deacon
2013-11-05 14:49                                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-05 14:49                                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-05 18:49                                                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-05 18:49                                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 11:00                                                     ` Will Deacon
2013-11-06 11:00                                                       ` Will Deacon
2013-11-06 12:39                                                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 12:39                                                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 12:51                                                   ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-11-06 12:51                                                     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2013-11-06 13:57                                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 13:57                                                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 18:48                                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-06 18:48                                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-06 19:42                                                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-06 19:42                                                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-07 11:17                                                       ` Will Deacon
2013-11-07 11:17                                                         ` Will Deacon
2013-11-07 13:36                                                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-07 13:36                                                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-07 23:50                                           ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2013-11-07 23:50                                             ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2013-11-04 11:05                                       ` Will Deacon
2013-11-04 11:05                                         ` Will Deacon
2013-11-04 16:34                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 16:34                                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 20:59                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-11-03 20:59                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-11-03 22:43                                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 22:43                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-03 17:07                             ` perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Will Deacon
2013-11-03 22:47                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04  9:57                                 ` Will Deacon
2013-11-04 10:52                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 16:11                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-01 16:11                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-02 17:46                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 17:46                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 16:18                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-01 16:18                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-02 17:49                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 17:49                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-30 13:28                   ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-30 13:28                     ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-30 15:51                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 15:51                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 18:29                       ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 18:29                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 19:11                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-30 19:11                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-31  4:33                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  4:33                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  4:32                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  4:32                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  9:04                       ` Peter Zijlstra [this message]
2013-10-31  9:04                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-31 15:07                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31 15:07                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31 15:19                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-10-31 15:19                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-01  9:28                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01  9:28                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 10:30                               ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-01 10:30                                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-02 15:20                                 ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 15:20                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04  9:07                                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04  9:07                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2013-11-04 10:00                                     ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-04 10:00                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31  9:59                       ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-31  9:59                         ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-31 12:28                         ` David Laight
2013-10-31 12:28                           ` David Laight
2013-10-31 12:55                           ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-31 12:55                             ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-10-31 15:25                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-31 15:25                           ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-01 16:06                           ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-01 16:06                             ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-01 16:25                             ` David Laight
2013-11-01 16:25                               ` David Laight
2013-11-01 16:30                               ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-01 16:30                                 ` Victor Kaplansky
2013-11-03 20:57                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-11-03 20:57                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2013-11-02 15:46                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-11-02 15:46                               ` Paul E. McKenney
2013-10-28 19:09           ` Oleg Nesterov
2013-10-28 19:09             ` Oleg Nesterov
2013-10-29 14:06     ` [tip:perf/urgent] perf: Fix perf ring buffer memory ordering tip-bot for Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-08 20:46 perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Mikulas Patocka
     [not found] ` <OF667059AA.7F151BCC-ONC2257CD3.0036CFEB-C2257CD3.003BBF01@il.ibm.com>
2014-05-09 12:20   ` Mikulas Patocka
2014-05-09 13:47     ` Paul E. McKenney

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