From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932707AbbBJMXp (ORCPT ); Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:23:45 -0500 Received: from cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com ([107.14.166.231]:31548 "EHLO cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-FAIL) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751032AbbBJMXn (ORCPT ); Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:23:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:24:12 -0500 From: Steven Rostedt To: Alexei Starovoitov Cc: Ingo Molnar , Namhyung Kim , Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo , Jiri Olsa , Masami Hiramatsu , Linux API , Network Development , LKML , Linus Torvalds Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 linux-trace 4/8] samples: bpf: simple tracing example in C Message-ID: <20150210072412.3ee73362@grimm.local.home> In-Reply-To: References: <1423539961-21792-1-git-send-email-ast@plumgrid.com> <1423539961-21792-5-git-send-email-ast@plumgrid.com> <20150209230836.7f913c60@grimm.local.home> <20150210001608.157a9190@grimm.local.home> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.11.1 (GTK+ 2.24.25; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RR-Connecting-IP: 107.14.168.118:25 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Added Linus because he's the one that would revert changes on breakage. On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 21:45:21 -0800 Alexei Starovoitov wrote: > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 23:08:36 -0500 > > Steven Rostedt wrote: > > > >> I don't want to get stuck with pinned kernel data structures again. We > >> had 4 blank bytes of data for every event, because latency top hard > >> coded the field. Luckily, the 64 bit / 32 bit interface caused latency > >> top to have to use the event_parse code to work, and we were able to > >> remove that field after it was converted. > > I think your main point boils down to: > > > But I still do not want any hard coded event structures. All access to > > data from the binary code must be parsed by looking at the event/format > > files. Otherwise you will lock internals of the kernel as userspace > > ABI, because eBPF programs will break if those internals change, and > > that could severely limit progress in the future. > > and I completely agree. > > the patch 4 is an example. It doesn't mean in any way > that structs defined here is an ABI. > To be compatible across kernels the user space must read > format file as you mentioned in your other reply. The thing is, this is a sample. Which means it will be cut and pasted into other programs. If the sample does not follow the way we want users to use this, then how can we complain if they hard code it as well? > > > I'm wondering if we should label eBPF programs as "modules". That is, > > they have no guarantee of working from one kernel to the next. They > > execute in the kernel, thus they are very similar to modules. > > > > If we can get Linus to say that eBPF programs are not user space, and > > that they are treated the same as modules (no internal ABI), then I > > think we can be a bit more free at what we allow. > > I thought we already stated that. > Here is the quote from perf_event.h: > * # The RAW record below is opaque data wrt the ABI > * # > * # That is, the ABI doesn't make any promises wrt to > * # the stability of its content, it may vary depending > * # on event, hardware, kernel version and phase of > * # the moon. > * # > * # In other words, PERF_SAMPLE_RAW contents are not an ABI. > > and this example is reading PERF_SAMPLE_RAW events and > uses locally defined structs to print them for simplicity. As we found out the hard way with latencytop, comments like this does not matter. If an application does something like this, it's our fault if it breaks later. We can't say "hey you were suppose to do it this way". That argument breaks down even more if our own examples do not follow the way we want others to do things. -- Steve From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Steven Rostedt Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 linux-trace 4/8] samples: bpf: simple tracing example in C Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:24:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20150210072412.3ee73362@grimm.local.home> References: <1423539961-21792-1-git-send-email-ast@plumgrid.com> <1423539961-21792-5-git-send-email-ast@plumgrid.com> <20150209230836.7f913c60@grimm.local.home> <20150210001608.157a9190@grimm.local.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ingo Molnar , Namhyung Kim , Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo , Jiri Olsa , Masami Hiramatsu , Linux API , Network Development , LKML , Linus Torvalds To: Alexei Starovoitov Return-path: In-Reply-To: Sender: linux-api-owner-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org List-Id: netdev.vger.kernel.org Added Linus because he's the one that would revert changes on breakage. On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 21:45:21 -0800 Alexei Starovoitov wrote: > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Feb 2015 23:08:36 -0500 > > Steven Rostedt wrote: > > > >> I don't want to get stuck with pinned kernel data structures again. We > >> had 4 blank bytes of data for every event, because latency top hard > >> coded the field. Luckily, the 64 bit / 32 bit interface caused latency > >> top to have to use the event_parse code to work, and we were able to > >> remove that field after it was converted. > > I think your main point boils down to: > > > But I still do not want any hard coded event structures. All access to > > data from the binary code must be parsed by looking at the event/format > > files. Otherwise you will lock internals of the kernel as userspace > > ABI, because eBPF programs will break if those internals change, and > > that could severely limit progress in the future. > > and I completely agree. > > the patch 4 is an example. It doesn't mean in any way > that structs defined here is an ABI. > To be compatible across kernels the user space must read > format file as you mentioned in your other reply. The thing is, this is a sample. Which means it will be cut and pasted into other programs. If the sample does not follow the way we want users to use this, then how can we complain if they hard code it as well? > > > I'm wondering if we should label eBPF programs as "modules". That is, > > they have no guarantee of working from one kernel to the next. They > > execute in the kernel, thus they are very similar to modules. > > > > If we can get Linus to say that eBPF programs are not user space, and > > that they are treated the same as modules (no internal ABI), then I > > think we can be a bit more free at what we allow. > > I thought we already stated that. > Here is the quote from perf_event.h: > * # The RAW record below is opaque data wrt the ABI > * # > * # That is, the ABI doesn't make any promises wrt to > * # the stability of its content, it may vary depending > * # on event, hardware, kernel version and phase of > * # the moon. > * # > * # In other words, PERF_SAMPLE_RAW contents are not an ABI. > > and this example is reading PERF_SAMPLE_RAW events and > uses locally defined structs to print them for simplicity. As we found out the hard way with latencytop, comments like this does not matter. If an application does something like this, it's our fault if it breaks later. We can't say "hey you were suppose to do it this way". That argument breaks down even more if our own examples do not follow the way we want others to do things. -- Steve