From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1751481AbbBWHAX (ORCPT ); Mon, 23 Feb 2015 02:00:23 -0500 Received: from eusmtp01.atmel.com ([212.144.249.242]:38211 "EHLO eusmtp01.atmel.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1750997AbbBWHAV (ORCPT ); Mon, 23 Feb 2015 02:00:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 08:00:06 +0100 From: Ludovic Desroches To: Rob Herring CC: Peter Hurley , Pantelis Antoniou , Frank Rowand , Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck , Ludovic Desroches Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure Message-ID: <20150223070006.GD29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> Mail-Followup-To: Rob Herring , Peter Hurley , Pantelis Antoniou , Frank Rowand , Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck References: <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> <53F2F94C-0C43-4A54-B8CD-EEC454A0AC19@konsulko.com> <54E742F2.80506@hurleysoftware.com> <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Hi Rob, On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:30:12AM -0600, Rob Herring wrote: > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches > wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote: > >> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > >> >>> Hi Frank, > > [...] > > >> >>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn’t understand which makes people > >> >>> who push product quite mad. > >> >>> > >> >>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit > >> >>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem. > >> >>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what, > >> >>> instead of turning a profit you’re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit > >> >>> per unit. > >> >> > >> >> I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be installing software > >> >> manually? (rhetorical question) > >> >> > >> > > >> > Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogrammed and is soldered as is. > >> > > >> > Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board makes logistics considerably > >> > easier. > >> > > >> > Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the correct dtb (even if it’s present > >> > on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone. > >> > > >> > Factory time == money, errors == money. > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences > >> >>> for a few million units. > >> >> > >> >> And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works? > >> >> > >> > > >> > The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in and functional testing if you’re > >> > lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might make financial sense to just ship > >> > as is and deal with recalls, if you’re reasonably happy after a little bit of statistical sampling. > >> > > >> > Hardware is hard :) > >> > >> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing process at all. > >> > >> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom images for the > >> White and Black? You _trust_ them to get that right, or more likely, you > >> have process control procedures in place so that you don't get 1 million Blacks > >> flashed with the White eeprom image. > >> > >> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not as if the > >> eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice versa). > >> > >> 3 For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD cards intended > >> for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000 Blacks; at > >> that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit. And that has > >> nothing to do with what image you provided. > >> > > > > As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during the > > production, having several DTB files will increase the risk. > > Then package them as a single file. You can even use DT to do that. > See u-boot FIT image. > > Rob It is acualyy what we did but we are not happy with this solution because as said previously we rely on U-Boot and on dts/dtsi side we have too many files. Regards Ludovic From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ludovic Desroches Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 08:00:06 +0100 Message-ID: <20150223070006.GD29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> References: <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> <53F2F94C-0C43-4A54-B8CD-EEC454A0AC19@konsulko.com> <54E742F2.80506@hurleysoftware.com> <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Return-path: Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org To: Rob Herring Cc: Peter Hurley , Pantelis Antoniou , Frank Rowand , Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck , Ludovic Desroches List-Id: devicetree@vger.kernel.org Hi Rob, On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:30:12AM -0600, Rob Herring wrote: > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches > wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote: > >> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > >> >>> Hi Frank, >=20 > [...] >=20 > >> >>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn=E2= =80=99t understand which makes people > >> >>> who push product quite mad. > >> >>> > >> >>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec,= in order to turn a profit > >> >>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturab= ility. > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. = =46or 1 board no problem. > >> >>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For = 1 million? Guess what, > >> >>> instead of turning a profit you=E2=80=99re losing money if you= only have a few cents of profit > >> >>> per unit. > >> >> > >> >> I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I b= e installing software > >> >> manually? (rhetorical question) > >> >> > >> > > >> > Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogramme= d and is soldered as is. > >> > > >> > Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board m= akes logistics considerably > >> > easier. > >> > > >> > Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the c= orrect dtb (even if it=E2=80=99s present > >> > on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone. > >> > > >> > Factory time =3D=3D money, errors =3D=3D money. > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob c= an have pretty bad consequences > >> >>> for a few million units. > >> >> > >> >> And you produce a few million units before testing that the fir= st one off the line works? > >> >> > >> > > >> > The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in= and functional testing if you=E2=80=99re > >> > lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might ma= ke financial sense to just ship > >> > as is and deal with recalls, if you=E2=80=99re reasonably happy = after a little bit of statistical sampling. > >> > > >> > Hardware is hard :) > >> > >> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing pro= cess at all. > >> > >> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom ima= ges for the > >> White and Black? You _trust_ them to get that right, or more l= ikely, you > >> have process control procedures in place so that you don't get = 1 million Blacks > >> flashed with the White eeprom image. > >> > >> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not= as if the > >> eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice = versa). > >> > >> 3 For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD ca= rds intended > >> for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000= Blacks; at > >> that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit.= And that has > >> nothing to do with what image you provided. > >> > > > > As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during t= he > > production, having several DTB files will increase the risk. >=20 > Then package them as a single file. You can even use DT to do that. > See u-boot FIT image. >=20 > Rob It is acualyy what we did but we are not happy with this solution because as said previously we rely on U-Boot and on dts/dtsi side we have too many files. Regards Ludovic From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: ludovic.desroches@atmel.com (Ludovic Desroches) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 08:00:06 +0100 Subject: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure In-Reply-To: References: <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> <53F2F94C-0C43-4A54-B8CD-EEC454A0AC19@konsulko.com> <54E742F2.80506@hurleysoftware.com> <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> Message-ID: <20150223070006.GD29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org List-Id: linux-arm-kernel.lists.infradead.org Hi Rob, On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:30:12AM -0600, Rob Herring wrote: > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches > wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote: > >> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand wrote: > >> >> > >> >> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > >> >>> Hi Frank, > > [...] > > >> >>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn?t understand which makes people > >> >>> who push product quite mad. > >> >>> > >> >>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit > >> >>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem. > >> >>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what, > >> >>> instead of turning a profit you?re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit > >> >>> per unit. > >> >> > >> >> I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be installing software > >> >> manually? (rhetorical question) > >> >> > >> > > >> > Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogrammed and is soldered as is. > >> > > >> > Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board makes logistics considerably > >> > easier. > >> > > >> > Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the correct dtb (even if it?s present > >> > on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone. > >> > > >> > Factory time == money, errors == money. > >> > > >> >>> > >> >>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences > >> >>> for a few million units. > >> >> > >> >> And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works? > >> >> > >> > > >> > The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in and functional testing if you?re > >> > lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might make financial sense to just ship > >> > as is and deal with recalls, if you?re reasonably happy after a little bit of statistical sampling. > >> > > >> > Hardware is hard :) > >> > >> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing process at all. > >> > >> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom images for the > >> White and Black? You _trust_ them to get that right, or more likely, you > >> have process control procedures in place so that you don't get 1 million Blacks > >> flashed with the White eeprom image. > >> > >> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not as if the > >> eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice versa). > >> > >> 3 For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD cards intended > >> for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000 Blacks; at > >> that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit. And that has > >> nothing to do with what image you provided. > >> > > > > As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during the > > production, having several DTB files will increase the risk. > > Then package them as a single file. You can even use DT to do that. > See u-boot FIT image. > > Rob It is acualyy what we did but we are not happy with this solution because as said previously we rely on U-Boot and on dts/dtsi side we have too many files. Regards Ludovic