From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Boris Brezillon Subject: Re: [PATCH v10 0/9] Add the I3C subsystem Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:00:58 +0100 Message-ID: <20181115200058.1869afdb@bbrezillon> References: <20181026144333.12276-1-boris.brezillon@bootlin.com> <76b1d15d-232c-d8ba-5eba-8394e71be725@synopsys.com> <20181115135731.25f60990@bbrezillon> <20181115150137.GB4169@kunai> <20181115162826.42b54776@bbrezillon> <1d64f21a-ad24-94e0-2c17-25729ef59a31@synopsys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-path: In-Reply-To: <1d64f21a-ad24-94e0-2c17-25729ef59a31@synopsys.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org To: vitor Cc: Wolfram Sang , linux-i2c@vger.kernel.org, Jonathan Corbet , linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , Arnd Bergmann , Przemyslaw Sroka , Arkadiusz Golec , Alan Douglas , Bartosz Folta , Damian Kos , Alicja Jurasik-Urbaniak , Cyprian Wronka , Suresh Punnoose , Rafal Ciepiela , Thomas Petazzoni , Nishanth Menon , Rob Herring , Pawel Moll , Mark Rutland , Ian Campbell List-Id: linux-gpio@vger.kernel.org On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:03:47 +0000 vitor wrote: > Hi Boris, > > > On 15/11/18 15:28, Boris Brezillon wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:01:37 +0100 > > Wolfram Sang wrote: > > > >> Hi Boris, > >> > >>> What we could do though, is expose I3C devices that do not have a > >>> driver in kernel space, like spidev does. > >> ... > >> > >>> Mark, Wolfram, Arnd, Greg, any opinion? > >> Is there a benefit for having drivers in userspace? My gut feeling is to > >> encourage people to write kernel drivers. If this is, for some reason, > >> not possible for some driver, then we have a use case at hand to test > >> the then-to-be-developed userspace interface against. Until then, I > >> personally wouldn't waste effort on designing it without a user in > >> sight. > > I kind of agree with that. Vitor, do you have a use case in mind for > > such userspace drivers? I don't think it's worth designing an API for > > something we don't need (yet). > > My use case is a tool for tests, lets say like the i2c tools. What would you like to test exactly? > There is > other subsystems, some of them mentioned on this thread, that have and > ioctl system call or other method to change parameters or send data. I don't think they added the /dev interface before having a real use case for it. > > > I rise this topic because I really think it worth to define now how this > should be design (and for me how to do the things right) to avoid future > issues. Actually it should be done the other way around: you should have a real need and the /dev interface should be designed to fulfill this need. Based on this real use case we can discuss other potential usage that might appear in the future and try to design something more future-proof, but clearly, this userspace interface should be driven by a real/well-defined use case. Also, exposing things to userspace is way more risky than adding a new in-kernel subsystem/framework, because it then becomes part of the stable ABI. To make things clearer, I'm not against the idea of exposing I3C devices (or I3C buses) to userspace, but I'd like to understand what you plan to do with that. If this is about testing, what kind of tests you'd like to run. If this is about developing drivers in userspace, why can't these be done in kernel space (license issues?), and what would those drivers be allowed to do? From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DF5C43441 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:01:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275E021582 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 19:01:06 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 275E021582 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=bootlin.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727756AbeKPFKC (ORCPT ); Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:10:02 -0500 Received: from mail.bootlin.com ([62.4.15.54]:52141 "EHLO mail.bootlin.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1725742AbeKPFKB (ORCPT ); Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:10:01 -0500 Received: by mail.bootlin.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id B6B762084B; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:00:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from bbrezillon (91-160-177-164.subs.proxad.net [91.160.177.164]) by mail.bootlin.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12B5920714; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:00:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 20:00:58 +0100 From: Boris Brezillon To: vitor Cc: Wolfram Sang , , "Jonathan Corbet" , , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Arnd Bergmann , Przemyslaw Sroka , Arkadiusz Golec , Alan Douglas , Bartosz Folta , Damian Kos , Alicja Jurasik-Urbaniak , "Cyprian Wronka" , Suresh Punnoose , "Rafal Ciepiela" , Thomas Petazzoni , Nishanth Menon , Rob Herring , Pawel Moll , Mark Rutland , Ian Campbell , "Kumar Gala" , , , Geert Uytterhoeven , Linus Walleij , Xiang Lin , , Sekhar Nori , Przemyslaw Gaj , Peter Rosin , Mike Shettel , Stephen Boyd , Mark Brown Subject: Re: [PATCH v10 0/9] Add the I3C subsystem Message-ID: <20181115200058.1869afdb@bbrezillon> In-Reply-To: <1d64f21a-ad24-94e0-2c17-25729ef59a31@synopsys.com> References: <20181026144333.12276-1-boris.brezillon@bootlin.com> <76b1d15d-232c-d8ba-5eba-8394e71be725@synopsys.com> <20181115135731.25f60990@bbrezillon> <20181115150137.GB4169@kunai> <20181115162826.42b54776@bbrezillon> <1d64f21a-ad24-94e0-2c17-25729ef59a31@synopsys.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 18:03:47 +0000 vitor wrote: > Hi Boris, > > > On 15/11/18 15:28, Boris Brezillon wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:01:37 +0100 > > Wolfram Sang wrote: > > > >> Hi Boris, > >> > >>> What we could do though, is expose I3C devices that do not have a > >>> driver in kernel space, like spidev does. > >> ... > >> > >>> Mark, Wolfram, Arnd, Greg, any opinion? > >> Is there a benefit for having drivers in userspace? My gut feeling is to > >> encourage people to write kernel drivers. If this is, for some reason, > >> not possible for some driver, then we have a use case at hand to test > >> the then-to-be-developed userspace interface against. Until then, I > >> personally wouldn't waste effort on designing it without a user in > >> sight. > > I kind of agree with that. Vitor, do you have a use case in mind for > > such userspace drivers? I don't think it's worth designing an API for > > something we don't need (yet). > > My use case is a tool for tests, lets say like the i2c tools. What would you like to test exactly? > There is > other subsystems, some of them mentioned on this thread, that have and > ioctl system call or other method to change parameters or send data. I don't think they added the /dev interface before having a real use case for it. > > > I rise this topic because I really think it worth to define now how this > should be design (and for me how to do the things right) to avoid future > issues. Actually it should be done the other way around: you should have a real need and the /dev interface should be designed to fulfill this need. Based on this real use case we can discuss other potential usage that might appear in the future and try to design something more future-proof, but clearly, this userspace interface should be driven by a real/well-defined use case. Also, exposing things to userspace is way more risky than adding a new in-kernel subsystem/framework, because it then becomes part of the stable ABI. To make things clearer, I'm not against the idea of exposing I3C devices (or I3C buses) to userspace, but I'd like to understand what you plan to do with that. If this is about testing, what kind of tests you'd like to run. If this is about developing drivers in userspace, why can't these be done in kernel space (license issues?), and what would those drivers be allowed to do?