From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=3.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_HIGH,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D51ECDE20 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803862084D for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:11 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=default; t=1568208015; bh=dtgvLUkv1FZGEFceT+Drw05AcUQLKDRXWP7Vti8K71U=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:List-ID:From; b=zv91J5/FHOZ3UrSKgWh/hbaVDsx962rm1yySR7S5JMEGPT7E6h6IsQ1dgQiFeF4ze m1APN58j5LfTby2ygUdn7QQIGnJwyHazgw+On0f0iarmCMWTcZwBgIYbPlg8D5AZ3x GchKVW2SVMkTIS7BA3MvpKX/FLC6iL5LHNo1SCFg= Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1728027AbfIKNUG (ORCPT ); Wed, 11 Sep 2019 09:20:06 -0400 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:50872 "EHLO mx1.suse.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-FAIL) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726781AbfIKNUG (ORCPT ); Wed, 11 Sep 2019 09:20:06 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay2.suse.de (unknown [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E76AF97; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:02 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:20:02 +0200 From: Michal Hocko To: David Hildenbrand Cc: "Michael S. Tsirkin" , Alexander Duyck , Alexander Duyck , virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org, kvm list , Catalin Marinas , Dave Hansen , LKML , Matthew Wilcox , linux-mm , Andrew Morton , will@kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, Oscar Salvador , Yang Zhang , Pankaj Gupta , Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk , Nitesh Narayan Lal , Rik van Riel , lcapitulino@redhat.com, "Wang, Wei W" , Andrea Arcangeli , ying.huang@intel.com, Paolo Bonzini , Dan Williams , Fengguang Wu , "Kirill A. Shutemov" Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 0/8] stg mail -e --version=v9 \ Message-ID: <20190911132002.GA4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> References: <20190910175213.GD4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <1d7de9f9f4074f67c567dbb4cc1497503d739e30.camel@linux.intel.com> <20190911113619.GP4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20190911080804-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20190911121941.GU4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20190911122526.GV4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <4748a572-57b3-31da-0dde-30138e550c3a@redhat.com> <20190911125413.GY4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <736594d6-b9ae-ddb9-2b96-85648728ef33@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <736594d6-b9ae-ddb9-2b96-85648728ef33@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Wed 11-09-19 15:03:39, David Hildenbrand wrote: > On 11.09.19 14:54, Michal Hocko wrote: > > On Wed 11-09-19 14:42:41, David Hildenbrand wrote: > >> On 11.09.19 14:25, Michal Hocko wrote: > >>> On Wed 11-09-19 14:19:41, Michal Hocko wrote: > >>>> On Wed 11-09-19 08:08:38, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 01:36:19PM +0200, Michal Hocko wrote: > >>>>>> On Tue 10-09-19 14:23:40, Alexander Duyck wrote: > >>>>>> [...] > >>>>>>> We don't put any limitations on the allocator other then that it needs to > >>>>>>> clean up the metadata on allocation, and that it cannot allocate a page > >>>>>>> that is in the process of being reported since we pulled it from the > >>>>>>> free_list. If the page is a "Reported" page then it decrements the > >>>>>>> reported_pages count for the free_area and makes sure the page doesn't > >>>>>>> exist in the "Boundary" array pointer value, if it does it moves the > >>>>>>> "Boundary" since it is pulling the page. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is still a non-trivial limitation on the page allocation from an > >>>>>> external code IMHO. I cannot give any explicit reason why an ordering on > >>>>>> the free list might matter (well except for page shuffling which uses it > >>>>>> to make physical memory pattern allocation more random) but the > >>>>>> architecture seems hacky and dubious to be honest. It shoulds like the > >>>>>> whole interface has been developed around a very particular and single > >>>>>> purpose optimization. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I remember that there was an attempt to report free memory that provided > >>>>>> a callback mechanism [1], which was much less intrusive to the internals > >>>>>> of the allocator yet it should provide a similar functionality. Did you > >>>>>> see that approach? How does this compares to it? Or am I completely off > >>>>>> when comparing them? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] mostly likely not the latest version of the patchset > >>>>>> http://lkml.kernel.org/r/1502940416-42944-5-git-send-email-wei.w.wang@intel.com > >>>>> > >>>>> Linus nacked that one. He thinks invoking callbacks with lots of > >>>>> internal mm locks is too fragile. > >>>> > >>>> I would be really curious how much he would be happy about injecting > >>>> other restrictions on the allocator like this patch proposes. This is > >>>> more intrusive as it has a higher maintenance cost longterm IMHO. > >>> > >>> Btw. I do agree that callbacks with internal mm locks are not great > >>> either. We do have a model for that in mmu_notifiers and it is something > >>> I do consider PITA, on the other hand it is mostly sleepable part of the > >>> interface which makes it the real pain. The above callback mechanism was > >>> explicitly documented with restrictions and that the context is > >>> essentially atomic with no access to particular struct pages and no > >>> expensive operations possible. So in the end I've considered it > >>> acceptably painful. Not that I want to override Linus' nack but if > >>> virtualization usecases really require some form of reporting and no > >>> other way to do that push people to invent even more interesting > >>> approaches then we should simply give them/you something reasonable > >>> and least intrusive to our internals. > >>> > >> > >> The issue with "[PATCH v14 4/5] mm: support reporting free page blocks" > >> is that it cannot really handle the use case we have here if I am not > >> wrong. While a page is getting processed by the hypervisor (e.g. > >> MADV_DONTNEED), it must not get reused. > > > > What prevents to use the callback to get a list of pfn ranges to work on > > and then use something like start_isolate_page_range on the collected > > pfn ranges to make sure nobody steals pages from under your feet, do > > your thing and drop the isolated state afterwards. > > > > I am saying somethig like because you wouldn't really want a generic > > has_unmovable_pages but rather > > if (!page_ref_count(page)) { > > if (PageBuddy(page)) > > iter += (1 << page_order(page)) - 1; > > continue; > > } > > subset of it. > > > > Something slightly similar is being performed by Nitesh's patch set. On > every free of a certain granularity, he records it in the bitmap. These > bits are "hints of free pages". > > A thread then walks over the bitmap and tries to allocate the "hints". > If the pages were already reused, the bit is silently cleared. > > Instead of allocating/freeing, we could only try to isolate the > pageblock, then test if free. (One of the usual issues to work around is > MAX_ORDER-1 crossing pageblocks, that might need special care) OK, cool that I have reinvented the wheel ;). Allocation is indeed not necessary as long as pages are isolated because nobody will allocate them. > I think you should have a look at the rough idea of Nitesh's patch set > to see if something like that is going into a better direction. The > bitmap part is in place to do bulk reporting and avoid duplicate reports. Let's see how much time I can find for that in my endless inbox whack a mole. > I think main points we want (and what I am missing from callback idea > being discussed) are > 1. Do bulk reporting only when a certain threshold is reached Is a time based approach too coarse? > 2. Report only bigger granularities (especially, avoid THP splits in the > hypervisor - >= 2MB proofed to be effective) the callback has supported order based scan in some of its iteration. > 3. Avoid reporting what has just been reported. Is the overhead of checking a pfn range in a bitmask that much of an overhead to really care? > 4. Continuously report, not the "one time report everything" approach. So you mean the allocator reporting this rather than an external code to poll right? I do not know, how much this is nice to have than must have? -- Michal Hocko SUSE Labs From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=3.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_HIGH,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B35C5ACAE for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D1D4206A5 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:22 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lists.infradead.org header.i=@lists.infradead.org header.b="czLpy4rF" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 5D1D4206A5 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=kernel.org Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-arm-kernel-bounces+infradead-linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=bombadil.20170209; h=Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Cc:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References: Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: List-Owner; bh=OLFgaJylI9ZBBlmwGr+xc9wX3nineAt9Jl4iPf5IJx4=; b=czLpy4rFEjdDHz zIkCXiSdW4vQeT/v2LtCpXQ/jN04lYH7rkUlzXnK/agjDpS3kGM/JqvYxzCP0yL0NmcC4nKlxwmkv dgnn1g6+ytZq4Br+nb6bY/wwHW0t2txmIJ5VRRjMzdmOyRy3uGdwfRUrwiyT6L3Zgy4gnS8AYWIG0 DwwHMTDtMKXHTNBFJxNRLhz7LVqBplvzne8oaFD07T9oFvqS1cYYH+xa+x37+/Kk/bkpqosIedxmf 68S2jzpDFSWzo0AdVshYX1mWE+t5c6qXQG2hnLoGdRs1UlOWb0tTm4NWGRVhHyE0TqxVrUoSNq3x4 0j81i/eSt153B+X2Dj6A==; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=bombadil.infradead.org) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.2 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1i82Xb-0007dO-H9; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:11 +0000 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15] helo=mx1.suse.de) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtps (Exim 4.92.2 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1i82XW-0006e6-Al for linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:08 +0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay2.suse.de (unknown [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E76AF97; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:20:02 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:20:02 +0200 From: Michal Hocko To: David Hildenbrand Subject: Re: [PATCH v9 0/8] stg mail -e --version=v9 \ Message-ID: <20190911132002.GA4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> References: <20190910175213.GD4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <1d7de9f9f4074f67c567dbb4cc1497503d739e30.camel@linux.intel.com> <20190911113619.GP4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20190911080804-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20190911121941.GU4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20190911122526.GV4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <4748a572-57b3-31da-0dde-30138e550c3a@redhat.com> <20190911125413.GY4023@dhcp22.suse.cz> <736594d6-b9ae-ddb9-2b96-85648728ef33@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <736594d6-b9ae-ddb9-2b96-85648728ef33@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20190911_062006_677711_B16BAE2D X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 32.48 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Yang Zhang , Pankaj Gupta , kvm list , "Michael S. Tsirkin" , Catalin Marinas , Alexander Duyck , lcapitulino@redhat.com, linux-mm , Alexander Duyck , will@kernel.org, Andrea Arcangeli , virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org, Rik van Riel , Matthew Wilcox , "Wang, Wei W" , ying.huang@intel.com, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk , Dan Williams , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, Oscar Salvador , Nitesh Narayan Lal , Dave Hansen , LKML , Paolo Bonzini , Andrew Morton , Fengguang Wu , "Kirill A. Shutemov" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+infradead-linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Wed 11-09-19 15:03:39, David Hildenbrand wrote: > On 11.09.19 14:54, Michal Hocko wrote: > > On Wed 11-09-19 14:42:41, David Hildenbrand wrote: > >> On 11.09.19 14:25, Michal Hocko wrote: > >>> On Wed 11-09-19 14:19:41, Michal Hocko wrote: > >>>> On Wed 11-09-19 08:08:38, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 01:36:19PM +0200, Michal Hocko wrote: > >>>>>> On Tue 10-09-19 14:23:40, Alexander Duyck wrote: > >>>>>> [...] > >>>>>>> We don't put any limitations on the allocator other then that it needs to > >>>>>>> clean up the metadata on allocation, and that it cannot allocate a page > >>>>>>> that is in the process of being reported since we pulled it from the > >>>>>>> free_list. If the page is a "Reported" page then it decrements the > >>>>>>> reported_pages count for the free_area and makes sure the page doesn't > >>>>>>> exist in the "Boundary" array pointer value, if it does it moves the > >>>>>>> "Boundary" since it is pulling the page. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is still a non-trivial limitation on the page allocation from an > >>>>>> external code IMHO. I cannot give any explicit reason why an ordering on > >>>>>> the free list might matter (well except for page shuffling which uses it > >>>>>> to make physical memory pattern allocation more random) but the > >>>>>> architecture seems hacky and dubious to be honest. It shoulds like the > >>>>>> whole interface has been developed around a very particular and single > >>>>>> purpose optimization. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I remember that there was an attempt to report free memory that provided > >>>>>> a callback mechanism [1], which was much less intrusive to the internals > >>>>>> of the allocator yet it should provide a similar functionality. Did you > >>>>>> see that approach? How does this compares to it? Or am I completely off > >>>>>> when comparing them? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] mostly likely not the latest version of the patchset > >>>>>> http://lkml.kernel.org/r/1502940416-42944-5-git-send-email-wei.w.wang@intel.com > >>>>> > >>>>> Linus nacked that one. He thinks invoking callbacks with lots of > >>>>> internal mm locks is too fragile. > >>>> > >>>> I would be really curious how much he would be happy about injecting > >>>> other restrictions on the allocator like this patch proposes. This is > >>>> more intrusive as it has a higher maintenance cost longterm IMHO. > >>> > >>> Btw. I do agree that callbacks with internal mm locks are not great > >>> either. We do have a model for that in mmu_notifiers and it is something > >>> I do consider PITA, on the other hand it is mostly sleepable part of the > >>> interface which makes it the real pain. The above callback mechanism was > >>> explicitly documented with restrictions and that the context is > >>> essentially atomic with no access to particular struct pages and no > >>> expensive operations possible. So in the end I've considered it > >>> acceptably painful. Not that I want to override Linus' nack but if > >>> virtualization usecases really require some form of reporting and no > >>> other way to do that push people to invent even more interesting > >>> approaches then we should simply give them/you something reasonable > >>> and least intrusive to our internals. > >>> > >> > >> The issue with "[PATCH v14 4/5] mm: support reporting free page blocks" > >> is that it cannot really handle the use case we have here if I am not > >> wrong. While a page is getting processed by the hypervisor (e.g. > >> MADV_DONTNEED), it must not get reused. > > > > What prevents to use the callback to get a list of pfn ranges to work on > > and then use something like start_isolate_page_range on the collected > > pfn ranges to make sure nobody steals pages from under your feet, do > > your thing and drop the isolated state afterwards. > > > > I am saying somethig like because you wouldn't really want a generic > > has_unmovable_pages but rather > > if (!page_ref_count(page)) { > > if (PageBuddy(page)) > > iter += (1 << page_order(page)) - 1; > > continue; > > } > > subset of it. > > > > Something slightly similar is being performed by Nitesh's patch set. On > every free of a certain granularity, he records it in the bitmap. These > bits are "hints of free pages". > > A thread then walks over the bitmap and tries to allocate the "hints". > If the pages were already reused, the bit is silently cleared. > > Instead of allocating/freeing, we could only try to isolate the > pageblock, then test if free. (One of the usual issues to work around is > MAX_ORDER-1 crossing pageblocks, that might need special care) OK, cool that I have reinvented the wheel ;). Allocation is indeed not necessary as long as pages are isolated because nobody will allocate them. > I think you should have a look at the rough idea of Nitesh's patch set > to see if something like that is going into a better direction. The > bitmap part is in place to do bulk reporting and avoid duplicate reports. Let's see how much time I can find for that in my endless inbox whack a mole. > I think main points we want (and what I am missing from callback idea > being discussed) are > 1. Do bulk reporting only when a certain threshold is reached Is a time based approach too coarse? > 2. Report only bigger granularities (especially, avoid THP splits in the > hypervisor - >= 2MB proofed to be effective) the callback has supported order based scan in some of its iteration. > 3. Avoid reporting what has just been reported. Is the overhead of checking a pfn range in a bitmask that much of an overhead to really care? > 4. Continuously report, not the "one time report everything" approach. So you mean the allocator reporting this rather than an external code to poll right? I do not know, how much this is nice to have than must have? -- Michal Hocko SUSE Labs _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel