From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.2 required=3.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SIGNED_OFF_BY,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB14CA90AF for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:39:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A62206D6 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:39:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1731196AbgEMLjy (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 May 2020 07:39:54 -0400 Received: from foss.arm.com ([217.140.110.172]:44010 "EHLO foss.arm.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1727794AbgEMLjx (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 May 2020 07:39:53 -0400 Received: from usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com (unknown [10.121.207.14]) by usa-sjc-mx-foss1.foss.arm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F048D6E; Wed, 13 May 2020 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arm.com (usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com [10.121.207.14]) by usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BFBA3F71E; Wed, 13 May 2020 04:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:39:50 +0100 From: Dave Martin To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Cc: linux-man@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/14] prctl.2: ffix quotation mark tweaks Message-ID: <20200513113949.GI21779@arm.com> References: <1589301419-24459-1-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <1589301419-24459-7-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Sender: linux-man-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > Hello Dave, > > On 5/12/20 6:36 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > > Convert quote marks used for information terms in prose to use > > \(oq .. \(cq, for better graphical rendering. > > > > Signed-off-by: Dave Martin > > Again, this is a patch that I would prefer to see near the end > of a series, rather than in the middle. > > I'm currently agnostic about this change. But, I do not > want to apply this patch, since no other pages in man-pages > use \(oq...\(cq. > > I haven't applied this patch. Luckily, that does not prevent > any of the later patches applying. I'll be careful to move this sort of thing to the end of a series in future. This was a provocative patch, so I'm happy for it to be dropped. The main motivation was that ' renders to PostScript etc. as a closing quote, which is fine for apostrophes but not fine for an opening quote mark. Most of the current quotes in here are actually ", but I don't see an actual promise from groff that that renders as a neutral glyph either, so it seemed best to avoid. For now " does seem to be rendered with a neutral glyph (i.e., neither opening or closing). > > --- > > > > Note, this can lead to misrendering on badly-configured systems. > > However, many man pages do it. > > Can you say some more about this please? Terminal character maps need to match LANG etc. in order for fancy characters coming out of nroff to display correctly. ssh attempts to send LANG across, but terminal sessions between systems that have different locales installed can be a problem, as can dumb serial links that don't magically pass the locale and terminal type settings across. The fact that I hit this problem a lot in some situations (particularly the serial link case) suggested to me that fancy characters are considered fine nowadays, but perhaps I'd need to dig into it some more to understand the situation fully. (There are one or two ' that should really be \(aq anyway, but I'll try to address that separately.) Cheers ---Dave From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Dave Martin Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/14] prctl.2: ffix quotation mark tweaks Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:39:50 +0100 Message-ID: <20200513113949.GI21779@arm.com> References: <1589301419-24459-1-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <1589301419-24459-7-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> Sender: linux-man-owner-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Cc: linux-man-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, linux-arch-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org List-Id: linux-arch.vger.kernel.org On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > Hello Dave, > > On 5/12/20 6:36 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > > Convert quote marks used for information terms in prose to use > > \(oq .. \(cq, for better graphical rendering. > > > > Signed-off-by: Dave Martin > > Again, this is a patch that I would prefer to see near the end > of a series, rather than in the middle. > > I'm currently agnostic about this change. But, I do not > want to apply this patch, since no other pages in man-pages > use \(oq...\(cq. > > I haven't applied this patch. Luckily, that does not prevent > any of the later patches applying. I'll be careful to move this sort of thing to the end of a series in future. This was a provocative patch, so I'm happy for it to be dropped. The main motivation was that ' renders to PostScript etc. as a closing quote, which is fine for apostrophes but not fine for an opening quote mark. Most of the current quotes in here are actually ", but I don't see an actual promise from groff that that renders as a neutral glyph either, so it seemed best to avoid. For now " does seem to be rendered with a neutral glyph (i.e., neither opening or closing). > > --- > > > > Note, this can lead to misrendering on badly-configured systems. > > However, many man pages do it. > > Can you say some more about this please? Terminal character maps need to match LANG etc. in order for fancy characters coming out of nroff to display correctly. ssh attempts to send LANG across, but terminal sessions between systems that have different locales installed can be a problem, as can dumb serial links that don't magically pass the locale and terminal type settings across. The fact that I hit this problem a lot in some situations (particularly the serial link case) suggested to me that fancy characters are considered fine nowadays, but perhaps I'd need to dig into it some more to understand the situation fully. (There are one or two ' that should really be \(aq anyway, but I'll try to address that separately.) Cheers ---Dave From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.4 required=3.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_HIGH,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SIGNED_OFF_BY, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0224CCA90AF for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:39:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0B0A205ED for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:39:58 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lists.infradead.org header.i=@lists.infradead.org header.b="cSoPGee/" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org C0B0A205ED Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=arm.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-arm-kernel-bounces+infradead-linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=bombadil.20170209; h=Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Cc:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References: Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: List-Owner; bh=of1DuaZyEiqOh+SR72Xn/fPrBu+evE7om7faO/1ePbU=; b=cSoPGee/B6HLz4 4yeDAixUT8ewFD7llSReyApZyIArqSH5jeo2nwfnugfjBf6DoX+hTSLD9RGdWqULNcGv6negikwl7 Aly+hBybGfDcc5EHhim9JDaVc25htMh4pOGFST70ndHmFCSSiCWF/wVE1v1TsyxBENCI+RDq0qXEG oLmXJliUI9Iw4auuhLG16UhVdJpF6RvVTHjiGNYzu5nBrsp6oIZ2SukduQqcOfByK8uIlMVWRpuh+ +0E+alzBm3ip1nJVdH75hD2U/D0dTuN3dKmLbbn3J6cb9i4V5lW482OoaO3iwwiPUiWFd4ecE4Cif w4t3UmfNPqm5w/1QAuqw==; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=bombadil.infradead.org) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1jYpjy-0006BG-9P; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:39:58 +0000 Received: from foss.arm.com ([217.140.110.172]) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1jYpju-00069y-HE for linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:39:56 +0000 Received: from usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com (unknown [10.121.207.14]) by usa-sjc-mx-foss1.foss.arm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F048D6E; Wed, 13 May 2020 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arm.com (usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com [10.121.207.14]) by usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BFBA3F71E; Wed, 13 May 2020 04:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:39:50 +0100 From: Dave Martin To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/14] prctl.2: ffix quotation mark tweaks Message-ID: <20200513113949.GI21779@arm.com> References: <1589301419-24459-1-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <1589301419-24459-7-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20200513_043954_613240_D06D0B66 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 20.15 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-man@vger.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+infradead-linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > Hello Dave, > > On 5/12/20 6:36 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > > Convert quote marks used for information terms in prose to use > > \(oq .. \(cq, for better graphical rendering. > > > > Signed-off-by: Dave Martin > > Again, this is a patch that I would prefer to see near the end > of a series, rather than in the middle. > > I'm currently agnostic about this change. But, I do not > want to apply this patch, since no other pages in man-pages > use \(oq...\(cq. > > I haven't applied this patch. Luckily, that does not prevent > any of the later patches applying. I'll be careful to move this sort of thing to the end of a series in future. This was a provocative patch, so I'm happy for it to be dropped. The main motivation was that ' renders to PostScript etc. as a closing quote, which is fine for apostrophes but not fine for an opening quote mark. Most of the current quotes in here are actually ", but I don't see an actual promise from groff that that renders as a neutral glyph either, so it seemed best to avoid. For now " does seem to be rendered with a neutral glyph (i.e., neither opening or closing). > > --- > > > > Note, this can lead to misrendering on badly-configured systems. > > However, many man pages do it. > > Can you say some more about this please? Terminal character maps need to match LANG etc. in order for fancy characters coming out of nroff to display correctly. ssh attempts to send LANG across, but terminal sessions between systems that have different locales installed can be a problem, as can dumb serial links that don't magically pass the locale and terminal type settings across. The fact that I hit this problem a lot in some situations (particularly the serial link case) suggested to me that fancy characters are considered fine nowadays, but perhaps I'd need to dig into it some more to understand the situation fully. (There are one or two ' that should really be \(aq anyway, but I'll try to address that separately.) Cheers ---Dave _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel