From: Luis Chamberlain <mcgrof@kernel.org> To: Steve deRosier <derosier@gmail.com> Cc: Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>, Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>, Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>, jeyu@kernel.org, akpm@linux-foundation.org, arnd@arndb.de, rostedt@goodmis.org, mingo@redhat.com, aquini@redhat.com, cai@lca.pw, dyoung@redhat.com, bhe@redhat.com, peterz@infradead.org, tglx@linutronix.de, gpiccoli@canonical.com, pmladek@suse.com, Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de>, schlad@suse.de, andriy.shevchenko@linux.intel.com, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>, Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>, will@kernel.org, mchehab+samsung@kernel.org, Kalle Valo <kvalo@codeaurora.org>, "David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>, Network Development <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, linux-wireless <linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org>, ath10k@lists.infradead.org, jiri@resnulli.us, briannorris@chromium.org Subject: Re: [RFC 1/2] devlink: add simple fw crash helpers Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:44:09 +0000 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20200522234409.GH11244@42.do-not-panic.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <CALLGbR+QPcECtJbYmzztV_Qysc5qtwujT_qc785zvhZMCH50fg@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 04:23:55PM -0700, Steve deRosier wrote: > Specifically, I don't think we should set a taint flag when a driver > easily handles a routine firmware crash and is confident that things > have come up just fine again. In other words, triggering the taint in > every driver module where it spits out a log comment that it had a > firmware crash and had to recover seems too much. Sure, firmware > shouldn't crash, sure it should be open source so we can fix it, > whatever... those sort of wishful comments simply ignore reality and > our ability to affect effective change. A lot of WiFi firmware crashes > and for well-known cases the drivers handle them well. And in some > cases, not so well and that should be a place the driver should detect > and thus raise a red flag. If a WiFi firmware crash can bring down > the kernel, there's either a major driver bug or some very funky > hardware crap going on. That sort of thing we should be able to > detect, mark with a taint (or something), and fix if within our sphere > of influence. I guess what it comes down to me is how aggressive we > are about setting the flag. Exactly the crux of the issue. I hope that by now we should all be in agreement that at least a firmware crash requiring a reboot is something we should record and inform the user of. A taint seems like a reasonable standard practice for these sorts of things. > I would like there to be a single solution, or a minimized set > depending on what makes sense for the requirements. I haven't had time > to look into the alternatives mentioned here so I don't have an > informed opinion about the solution. I do think Luis is trying to > solve a real problem though. Can we look at this from the point of > view of what are the requirements? What is it we're trying to solve? > > I _think_ that the goal of Luis's original proposal is to report up to > the user, at some future point when the user is interested (because > something super drastic just occured, but long after the fw crash), > that there was a firmware crash without the user having to grep > through all logs on the machine. And then if the user sees that flag > and suspects it, then they can bother to find it in the logs or do > more drastic debugging steps like finding the fw crash in the log and > pulling firmware crash dumps, etc. Yes, that's exactly it. Not all users are clueful to inspect logs. I now have a generic uevent mechanism drafted which sends a uevent for *any* taint. So that is, it does not even depend on this series. But it accomplishes the goal of informing the user of taints. > I think the various alternate solutions are great but perhaps solving > a superset of features (like adding in user-space notifications etc)? > Perhaps different people on these related threads are trying to solve > different problems? The uevent mechanism I implemented (but not yet posted for review) at least sends out a smoke signal. I think that if each subsystem wants to expand on this with dumping facilities that is great too! Luis
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Luis Chamberlain <mcgrof@kernel.org> To: Steve deRosier <derosier@gmail.com> Cc: linux-wireless <linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org>, aquini@redhat.com, peterz@infradead.org, Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>, mchehab+samsung@kernel.org, will@kernel.org, Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>, bhe@redhat.com, briannorris@chromium.org, ath10k@lists.infradead.org, Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de>, mingo@redhat.com, Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>, dyoung@redhat.com, pmladek@suse.com, jiri@resnulli.us, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>, arnd@arndb.de, gpiccoli@canonical.com, rostedt@goodmis.org, cai@lca.pw, tglx@linutronix.de, andriy.shevchenko@linux.intel.com, Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>, Kalle Valo <kvalo@codeaurora.org>, Network Development <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, schlad@suse.de, LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, jeyu@kernel.org, akpm@linux-foundation.org, "David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net> Subject: Re: [RFC 1/2] devlink: add simple fw crash helpers Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:44:09 +0000 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20200522234409.GH11244@42.do-not-panic.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <CALLGbR+QPcECtJbYmzztV_Qysc5qtwujT_qc785zvhZMCH50fg@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 04:23:55PM -0700, Steve deRosier wrote: > Specifically, I don't think we should set a taint flag when a driver > easily handles a routine firmware crash and is confident that things > have come up just fine again. In other words, triggering the taint in > every driver module where it spits out a log comment that it had a > firmware crash and had to recover seems too much. Sure, firmware > shouldn't crash, sure it should be open source so we can fix it, > whatever... those sort of wishful comments simply ignore reality and > our ability to affect effective change. A lot of WiFi firmware crashes > and for well-known cases the drivers handle them well. And in some > cases, not so well and that should be a place the driver should detect > and thus raise a red flag. If a WiFi firmware crash can bring down > the kernel, there's either a major driver bug or some very funky > hardware crap going on. That sort of thing we should be able to > detect, mark with a taint (or something), and fix if within our sphere > of influence. I guess what it comes down to me is how aggressive we > are about setting the flag. Exactly the crux of the issue. I hope that by now we should all be in agreement that at least a firmware crash requiring a reboot is something we should record and inform the user of. A taint seems like a reasonable standard practice for these sorts of things. > I would like there to be a single solution, or a minimized set > depending on what makes sense for the requirements. I haven't had time > to look into the alternatives mentioned here so I don't have an > informed opinion about the solution. I do think Luis is trying to > solve a real problem though. Can we look at this from the point of > view of what are the requirements? What is it we're trying to solve? > > I _think_ that the goal of Luis's original proposal is to report up to > the user, at some future point when the user is interested (because > something super drastic just occured, but long after the fw crash), > that there was a firmware crash without the user having to grep > through all logs on the machine. And then if the user sees that flag > and suspects it, then they can bother to find it in the logs or do > more drastic debugging steps like finding the fw crash in the log and > pulling firmware crash dumps, etc. Yes, that's exactly it. Not all users are clueful to inspect logs. I now have a generic uevent mechanism drafted which sends a uevent for *any* taint. So that is, it does not even depend on this series. But it accomplishes the goal of informing the user of taints. > I think the various alternate solutions are great but perhaps solving > a superset of features (like adding in user-space notifications etc)? > Perhaps different people on these related threads are trying to solve > different problems? The uevent mechanism I implemented (but not yet posted for review) at least sends out a smoke signal. I think that if each subsystem wants to expand on this with dumping facilities that is great too! Luis _______________________________________________ ath10k mailing list ath10k@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/ath10k
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-05-22 23:44 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 128+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2020-05-15 21:28 [PATCH v2 00/15] net: taint when the device driver firmware crashes Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 01/15] taint: add module firmware crash taint support Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:03 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-19 16:42 ` Jessica Yu 2020-05-22 5:17 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 02/15] ethernet/839: use new module_firmware_crashed() Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:04 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 03/15] bnx2x: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:05 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 04/15] bnxt: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:06 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-16 5:14 ` Vasundhara Volam 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 05/15] bna: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:07 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 06/15] liquidio: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:07 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 07/15] cxgb4: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:09 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 08/15] ehea: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:09 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 09/15] qed: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:10 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 10/15] soc: qcom: ipa: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:10 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-19 22:34 ` Alex Elder 2020-05-22 5:28 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 20:52 ` Alex Elder 2020-05-22 21:53 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 11/15] wimax/i2400m: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:11 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 12/15] ath10k: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-15 21:28 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:11 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-16 4:11 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-16 13:24 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-16 13:24 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-16 13:50 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-16 13:50 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 16:56 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 16:56 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-19 1:23 ` Brian Norris 2020-05-19 1:23 ` Brian Norris 2020-05-19 14:02 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-19 14:02 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-20 0:47 ` Brian Norris 2020-05-20 0:47 ` Brian Norris 2020-05-20 5:37 ` Emmanuel Grumbach 2020-05-20 5:37 ` Emmanuel Grumbach 2020-05-20 8:32 ` Andy Shevchenko 2020-05-20 8:32 ` Andy Shevchenko 2020-05-21 19:01 ` Brian Norris 2020-05-21 19:01 ` Brian Norris 2020-05-22 5:12 ` Emmanuel Grumbach 2020-05-22 5:12 ` Emmanuel Grumbach 2020-05-22 5:23 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 5:23 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 16:51 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 16:51 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 16:58 ` Ben Greear 2020-05-18 16:58 ` Ben Greear 2020-05-18 17:09 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 17:09 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 17:15 ` Ben Greear 2020-05-18 17:15 ` Ben Greear 2020-05-18 17:18 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 17:18 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 18:06 ` Steve deRosier 2020-05-18 18:06 ` Steve deRosier 2020-05-18 19:09 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 19:09 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 19:25 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 19:25 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 19:59 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 19:59 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 20:07 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 20:07 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 21:18 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 21:18 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 20:28 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 20:28 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 20:29 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 20:29 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 20:35 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 20:35 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 20:41 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 20:41 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-18 20:46 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 20:46 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 21:22 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 21:22 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-18 22:16 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-18 22:16 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-19 1:05 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-19 1:05 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-19 21:15 ` [RFC 1/2] devlink: add simple fw crash helpers Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-19 21:15 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-22 5:20 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 5:20 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 17:17 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-22 17:17 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-22 20:46 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-22 20:46 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-22 21:51 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 21:51 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 23:23 ` Steve deRosier 2020-05-22 23:23 ` Steve deRosier 2020-05-22 23:44 ` Luis Chamberlain [this message] 2020-05-22 23:44 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-25 9:07 ` Andy Shevchenko 2020-05-25 9:07 ` Andy Shevchenko 2020-05-25 17:08 ` Ben Greear 2020-05-25 17:08 ` Ben Greear 2020-05-25 20:57 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-25 20:57 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-07-30 13:56 ` Johannes Berg 2020-07-30 13:56 ` Johannes Berg 2020-05-22 21:49 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-22 21:49 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-19 21:15 ` [RFC 2/2] i2400m: use devlink health reporter Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-19 21:15 ` Jakub Kicinski 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 13/15] ath6kl: use new module_firmware_crashed() Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-15 21:28 ` Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:12 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-16 4:12 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 14/15] brcm80211: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:13 ` Rafael Aquini 2020-05-15 21:28 ` [PATCH v2 15/15] mwl8k: " Luis Chamberlain 2020-05-16 4:13 ` Rafael Aquini
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