From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,INCLUDES_PATCH,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D92A9C2BC0E for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67D9207EA for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726714AbgIBVid (ORCPT ); Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:38:33 -0400 Received: from elvis.franken.de ([193.175.24.41]:49452 "EHLO elvis.franken.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726355AbgIBVic (ORCPT ); Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:38:32 -0400 Received: from uucp (helo=alpha) by elvis.franken.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1kDaSO-0001KH-00; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 23:38:16 +0200 Received: by alpha.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29A9AC0E7B; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer To: Christoph Hellwig Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, Marek Szyprowski , linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park , Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Seung-Woo Kim , linux-mips@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Message-ID: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Sender: linux-parisc-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ] From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,INCLUDES_PATCH, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F09C43461 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from merlin.infradead.org (merlin.infradead.org [205.233.59.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E1F3207EA for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lists.infradead.org header.i=@lists.infradead.org header.b="zNYwDtfJ" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 2E1F3207EA Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=alpha.franken.de Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-nvme-bounces+linux-nvme=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=merlin.20170209; h=Sender:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:Cc:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post:List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Owner; bh=X20sOZMi/zCkO76t2bOn0S1B7+T2I7HL+LiJ7gQVq4g=; b=zNYwDtfJmwhVSMp4tNJJc0wv0 X5ORkJmxbL2+2gYlQTuIhW4nhAd1J2mJhAGbSahYmXpWOClcC4EbFPpxBgLkpqlNf7G3l9LmxnVSg uhms2z63wAPYZL4s06kb4AdD3uRE/0lmjP+7+lrtc6RYiEEZz7/Z4odVOACljSf6dOxEgNvEbezon CnjQVoaWXIURFMsd+7hIJITHCn9zrv1RZ3gXYk2gx1TYzbgFcEg/4KdQegbSDR/R214aUg3RY9zbM jg25JUe7vt5dtiag4oUi+vbVp/JwmqxcrDKAIQ8QCmU5SibGJtv/moobmWCU/PqCwb2WGxQ5HwKDh WfsHA2xXw==; Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=merlin.infradead.org) by merlin.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1kDaSh-0003JB-3a; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:38:35 +0000 Received: from elvis.franken.de ([193.175.24.41]) by merlin.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1kDaSc-0003Hj-RE; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:38:32 +0000 Received: from uucp (helo=alpha) by elvis.franken.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1kDaSO-0001KH-00; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 23:38:16 +0200 Received: by alpha.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29A9AC0E7B; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer To: Christoph Hellwig Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Message-ID: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20200902_173831_095196_9F29ACF9 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 23.00 ) X-BeenThere: linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-mips@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, Marek Szyprowski , linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org, Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Seung-Woo Kim , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "Linux-nvme" Errors-To: linux-nvme-bounces+linux-nvme=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ] _______________________________________________ Linux-nvme mailing list Linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-nvme From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,INCLUDES_PATCH,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93451C433E7 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:39:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from alsa0.perex.cz (alsa0.perex.cz [77.48.224.243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11CF6208C7 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:39:28 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alsa-project.org header.i=@alsa-project.org header.b="D/9qvDk7" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 11CF6208C7 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=alpha.franken.de Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=alsa-devel-bounces@alsa-project.org Received: from alsa1.perex.cz (alsa1.perex.cz [207.180.221.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by alsa0.perex.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 968CF18B7; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:36 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 alsa0.perex.cz 968CF18B7 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=alsa-project.org; s=default; t=1599082766; bh=uoKKaXRjqJd2pF3IMq6wpSN3SJbmm0XfoN0PbzV3blY=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Cc:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: From; b=D/9qvDk789TtXFBb5bXJWcNMiGGudkGCmsLN/9mAcZ/2wIjVBWqtNHkzXWOaPJuFr 0XSbBAo0Mj2a/PggBu2SUIIIAdMIFsLSMObLEjsaVDq68ikCosvvOL4Nmh+735kVxK /3XzNmtShaw5feVIGPyTkORchvNct3Noy9b2ueHY= Received: from alsa1.perex.cz (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alsa1.perex.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E7EF80212; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: by alsa1.perex.cz (Postfix, from userid 50401) id 21620F8024A; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elvis.franken.de (elvis.franken.de [193.175.24.41]) by alsa1.perex.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4843F801DA for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:30 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 alsa1.perex.cz A4843F801DA Received: from uucp (helo=alpha) by elvis.franken.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1kDaSO-0001KH-00; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 23:38:16 +0200 Received: by alpha.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29A9AC0E7B; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer To: Christoph Hellwig Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Message-ID: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-mips@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, Marek Szyprowski , linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org, Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Seung-Woo Kim , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park X-BeenThere: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Alsa-devel mailing list for ALSA developers - http://www.alsa-project.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: alsa-devel-bounces@alsa-project.org Sender: "Alsa-devel" On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ] From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 Message-ID: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> Sender: linux-samsung-soc-owner@vger.kernel.org To: Christoph Hellwig Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, Marek Szyprowski , linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park , Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org List-Id: nouveau.vger.kernel.org On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ] From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,INCLUDES_PATCH,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE23C2BC0E for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADBDE208C7 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:34 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org ADBDE208C7 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=alpha.franken.de Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=iommu-bounces@lists.linux-foundation.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8F7867D7; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opdntAEI9IvQ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.linuxfoundation.org (lf-lists.osuosl.org [140.211.9.56]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D921784E0C; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lf-lists.osuosl.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF42C0052; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from silver.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDB1C0051 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by silver.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26181FE32 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from silver.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fGr9oif7V95M for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from elvis.franken.de (elvis.franken.de [193.175.24.41]) by silver.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5F41FD16 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:38:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from uucp (helo=alpha) by elvis.franken.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1kDaSO-0001KH-00; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 23:38:16 +0200 Received: by alpha.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29A9AC0E7B; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer To: Christoph Hellwig Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Message-ID: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-mips@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org, Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Seung-Woo Kim , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park X-BeenThere: iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Development issues for Linux IOMMU support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: iommu-bounces@lists.linux-foundation.org Sender: "iommu" On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ] _______________________________________________ iommu mailing list iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/iommu From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,INCLUDES_PATCH, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B5AC433E2 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:39:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from merlin.infradead.org (merlin.infradead.org [205.233.59.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB8F7207EA for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:39:44 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lists.infradead.org header.i=@lists.infradead.org header.b="FyryHRtf" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org CB8F7207EA Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=alpha.franken.de Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=merlin.20170209; h=Sender:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:Cc:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post:List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Owner; bh=eFBIXjL2Nyv4uQGLFaHUbVIxZevKQ+Di3WH2Lyp71pI=; b=FyryHRtfPF2PGxQ3a7b2N/61p vjXNYtb7FcP7mKgs2MhzWqcFE98VfTFifpL/OgrHddocd4DftIVZ/tUDloxVMBOKDqovmZ6qlFhRK 3d5X3NwBMFx70INQHm6WUKdWOdY2Tl0dh70pkE/QcfnSWzZrdOejNyz49nCLOk/QKLf578pPtF5dY QgJHeQuKoA/W8wFRPvjFrseB0IuX1he17srSdQYlHaaC/kxqh0C48yHBY8uQ4pxb8ijtKXpP7PpuL di6O2ATEdnarL64QOOAGEWdbNxaJe+sN8KEwHz9Q5Rgdtt9W/AnQufzgMOZJoidKnuDzjFE/6QWbX D0F17JLvQ==; Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=merlin.infradead.org) by merlin.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1kDaSi-0003Jx-Tb; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:38:36 +0000 Received: from elvis.franken.de ([193.175.24.41]) by merlin.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1kDaSc-0003Hj-RE; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:38:32 +0000 Received: from uucp (helo=alpha) by elvis.franken.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1kDaSO-0001KH-00; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 23:38:16 +0200 Received: by alpha.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29A9AC0E7B; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 23:38:09 +0200 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer To: Christoph Hellwig Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Message-ID: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20200902_173831_095196_9F29ACF9 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 23.00 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-mips@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, Marek Szyprowski , linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org, Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Seung-Woo Kim , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ] _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Thomas Bogendoerfer Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:38:09 +0000 Subject: Re: [PATCH 22/28] sgiseeq: convert from dma_cache_sync to dma_sync_single_for_device Message-Id: <20200902213809.GA7998@alpha.franken.de> List-Id: References: <20200819065555.1802761-1-hch@lst.de> <20200819065555.1802761-23-hch@lst.de> <20200901152209.GA14288@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171241.GA20685@alpha.franken.de> <20200901171627.GA8255@lst.de> <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> In-Reply-To: <20200901173810.GA25282@alpha.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Christoph Hellwig Cc: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, linux-ia64@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, nouveau@lists.freedesktop.org, linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, "James E.J. Bottomley" , linux-mm@kvack.org, Marek Szyprowski , linux-samsung-soc@vger.kernel.org, Joonyoung Shim , linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org, Kyungmin Park , Ben Skeggs , Matt Porter , linux-media@vger.kernel.org, Tom Lendacky , Pawel Osciak , Mauro Carvalho Chehab , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Seung-Woo Kim , linux-mips@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux-foundation.org On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:38:10PM +0200, Thomas Bogendoerfer wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 07:16:27PM +0200, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > Well, if IP22 doesn't speculate (which I'm pretty sure is the case), > > dma_sync_single_for_cpu should indeeed be a no-op. But then there > > also shouldn't be anything in the cache, as the previous > > dma_sync_single_for_device should have invalidated it. So it seems like > > we are missing one (or more) ownership transfers to the device. I'll > > try to look at the the ownership management in a little more detail > > tomorrow. > > this is the problem: > > /* Always check for received packets. */ > sgiseeq_rx(dev, sp, hregs, sregs); > > so the driver will look at the rx descriptor on every interrupt, so > we cache the rx descriptor on the first interrupt and if there was > $no rx packet, we will only see it, if cache line gets flushed for > some other reason. kick_tx() does a busy loop checking tx descriptors, > with just sync_desc_cpu... the patch below fixes the problem. Thomas. diff --git a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c index 8507ff242014..876e3700a0e4 100644 --- a/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c +++ b/drivers/net/ethernet/seeq/sgiseeq.c @@ -112,14 +112,18 @@ struct sgiseeq_private { static inline void dma_sync_desc_cpu(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_FROM_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_FROM_DEVICE); } static inline void dma_sync_desc_dev(struct net_device *dev, void *addr) { - dma_cache_sync(dev->dev.parent, addr, sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), - DMA_TO_DEVICE); + struct sgiseeq_private *sp = netdev_priv(dev); + + dma_sync_single_for_device(dev->dev.parent, VIRT_TO_DMA(sp, addr), + sizeof(struct sgiseeq_rx_desc), DMA_TO_DEVICE); } -- Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea. [ RFC1925, 2.3 ]