From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,MENTIONS_GIT_HOSTING, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5A8C4363A for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:31:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3542245F for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:31:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S2502920AbgJVIbv (ORCPT ); Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:31:51 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:34468 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S2502520AbgJVIbu (ORCPT ); Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:31:50 -0400 Received: from gardel.0pointer.net (gardel.0pointer.net [IPv6:2a01:238:43ed:c300:10c3:bcf3:3266:da74]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6EFBC0613CE for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 01:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gardel-login.0pointer.net (gardel.0pointer.net [85.214.157.71]) by gardel.0pointer.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EEAE8080C; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:31:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by gardel-login.0pointer.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BDB36160834; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:31:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:31:46 +0200 From: Lennart Poettering To: Szabolcs Nagy Cc: Jeremy Linton , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , libc-alpha@sourceware.org, systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org, "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Mark Rutland , Kees Cook , Catalin Marinas , Will Deacon , Mark Brown , Dave Martin Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] BTI interaction between seccomp filters in systemd and glibc mprotect calls, causing service failures Message-ID: <20201022083146.GA324761@gardel-login> References: <8584c14f-5c28-9d70-c054-7c78127d84ea@arm.com> <20201022071812.GA324655@gardel-login> <20201022080548.GP3819@arm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20201022080548.GP3819@arm.com> Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Do, 22.10.20 09:05, Szabolcs Nagy (szabolcs.nagy@arm.com) wrote: > > > Various changes have been suggested, replacing the mprotect with mmap calls > > > having PROT_BTI set on the original mapping, re-mmapping the segments, > > > implying PROT_EXEC on mprotect PROT_BTI calls when VM_EXEC is already set, > > > and various modification to seccomp to allow particular mprotect cases to > > > bypass the filters. In each case there seems to be an undesirable attribute > > > to the solution. > > > > > > So, whats the best solution? > > > > Did you see Topi's comments on the systemd issue? > > > > https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/17368#issuecomment-710485532 > > > > I think I agree with this: it's a bit weird to alter the bits after > > the fact. Can't glibc set up everything right from the begining? That > > would keep both concepts working. > > that's hard to do and does not work for the main exe currently > (which is mmaped by the kernel). > > (it's hard to do because to know that the elf module requires > bti the PT_GNU_PROPERTY notes have to be accessed that are > often in the executable load segment, so either you mmap that > or have to read that, but the latter has a lot more failure > modes, so if i have to get the mmap flags right i'd do a mmap > and then re-mmap if the flags were not right) Only other option I then see is to neuter one of the two mechanisms. We could certainly turn off MDWE on arm in systemd, if people want that. Or make it a build-time choice, so that distros make the choice: build everything with BTI xor suppport MDWE. (Might make sense for glibc to gracefully fallback to non-BTI mode if the mprotect() fails though, to make sure BTI-built binaries work everywhere.) I figure your interest in ARM system security is bigger than mine. I am totally fine to turn off MDWE on ARM if that's what the Linux ARM folks want. I ave no horse in the race. Just let me know. [An acceptable compromise might be to allow mprotect(PROT_EXEC|PROT_BTI) if MDWE is on, but prohibit mprotect(PROT_EXEC) without PROT_BTI. Then at least you get one of the two protections, but not both. I mean, MDWE is not perfect anyway on non-x86-64 already: on 32bit i386 MDWE protection is not complete, due to ipc() syscall multiplexing being unmatchable with seccomp. I personally am happy as long as it works fully on x86-64] Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Berlin From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.8 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MENTIONS_GIT_HOSTING,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E587C4363A for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:33:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from merlin.infradead.org (merlin.infradead.org [205.233.59.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15FD521775 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lists.infradead.org header.i=@lists.infradead.org header.b="ZwMfxoLw" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 15FD521775 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=0pointer.de Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=merlin.20170209; h=Sender:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:Cc:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post:List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Owner; bh=fV7FSTmBM3Vy1xX+Xwtnze649LydHrwGiAaisZ4iR3c=; b=ZwMfxoLwbTq9vXoYso8vCT/zR 1neRgMA82HKIfeKrHmn/ZJYRBGeLuMgshU3lZubZH0wXL366FmcZ5S21LLwWbf8XCY8OmP802N8Sy 4yOt4I5sVb3mHbzpGMP5MgD/AuFJVBLPVenRAz1gNn1amQVuhHX5Qe8Qmdvanh8uzPjFGAPqzFyGX dTTOshHcLqcOMIm51qA16eS2MVVmvJjFf/RjpyD1LGZ3LIwQHkE9JhEQejvThvTjibF37OnSFjea0 QI14HbuoslYurPSgbyyKMSQT2GHK9wnzMz8GdaiW3zhQcL9S7X0glfyfNOfNEFDSZ1LK985jH2q56 knd5kg+rA==; Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=merlin.infradead.org) by merlin.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1kVW0m-0003Fo-Q3; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:31:52 +0000 Received: from gardel.0pointer.net ([2a01:238:43ed:c300:10c3:bcf3:3266:da74]) by merlin.infradead.org with esmtps (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1kVW0j-0003Ex-FW for linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 08:31:50 +0000 Received: from gardel-login.0pointer.net (gardel.0pointer.net [85.214.157.71]) by gardel.0pointer.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EEAE8080C; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:31:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by gardel-login.0pointer.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BDB36160834; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:31:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:31:46 +0200 From: Lennart Poettering To: Szabolcs Nagy Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] BTI interaction between seccomp filters in systemd and glibc mprotect calls, causing service failures Message-ID: <20201022083146.GA324761@gardel-login> References: <8584c14f-5c28-9d70-c054-7c78127d84ea@arm.com> <20201022071812.GA324655@gardel-login> <20201022080548.GP3819@arm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20201022080548.GP3819@arm.com> X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20201022_043149_651946_8BA75667 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 21.38 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Mark Rutland , systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org, Kees Cook , Catalin Marinas , Will Deacon , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Jeremy Linton , Mark Brown , libc-alpha@sourceware.org, Dave Martin , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Do, 22.10.20 09:05, Szabolcs Nagy (szabolcs.nagy@arm.com) wrote: > > > Various changes have been suggested, replacing the mprotect with mmap calls > > > having PROT_BTI set on the original mapping, re-mmapping the segments, > > > implying PROT_EXEC on mprotect PROT_BTI calls when VM_EXEC is already set, > > > and various modification to seccomp to allow particular mprotect cases to > > > bypass the filters. In each case there seems to be an undesirable attribute > > > to the solution. > > > > > > So, whats the best solution? > > > > Did you see Topi's comments on the systemd issue? > > > > https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/17368#issuecomment-710485532 > > > > I think I agree with this: it's a bit weird to alter the bits after > > the fact. Can't glibc set up everything right from the begining? That > > would keep both concepts working. > > that's hard to do and does not work for the main exe currently > (which is mmaped by the kernel). > > (it's hard to do because to know that the elf module requires > bti the PT_GNU_PROPERTY notes have to be accessed that are > often in the executable load segment, so either you mmap that > or have to read that, but the latter has a lot more failure > modes, so if i have to get the mmap flags right i'd do a mmap > and then re-mmap if the flags were not right) Only other option I then see is to neuter one of the two mechanisms. We could certainly turn off MDWE on arm in systemd, if people want that. Or make it a build-time choice, so that distros make the choice: build everything with BTI xor suppport MDWE. (Might make sense for glibc to gracefully fallback to non-BTI mode if the mprotect() fails though, to make sure BTI-built binaries work everywhere.) I figure your interest in ARM system security is bigger than mine. I am totally fine to turn off MDWE on ARM if that's what the Linux ARM folks want. I ave no horse in the race. Just let me know. [An acceptable compromise might be to allow mprotect(PROT_EXEC|PROT_BTI) if MDWE is on, but prohibit mprotect(PROT_EXEC) without PROT_BTI. Then at least you get one of the two protections, but not both. I mean, MDWE is not perfect anyway on non-x86-64 already: on 32bit i386 MDWE protection is not complete, due to ipc() syscall multiplexing being unmatchable with seccomp. I personally am happy as long as it works fully on x86-64] Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Berlin _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel