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[2603:6081:7b01:cbda:5120:5dda:66b4:5098]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t125sm8451421qkf.41.2021.07.07.06.51.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 07 Jul 2021 06:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 09:51:52 -0400 From: Tom Rini To: Sean Anderson Cc: Wolfgang Denk , u-boot@lists.denx.de, Marek =?iso-8859-1?Q?Beh=FAn?= , Simon Glass , Roland Gaudig , Heinrich Schuchardt , Kostas Michalopoulos Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 02/28] cli: Add LIL shell Message-ID: <20210707135152.GU9516@bill-the-cat> References: <20210701061611.957918-3-seanga2@gmail.com> <126700.1625223815@gemini.denx.de> <8bbdb7a1-5085-a3b7-614f-12ae9aee8e8b@gmail.com> <18831.1625340810@gemini.denx.de> <20210705191058.GB9516@bill-the-cat> <192103.1625557460@gemini.denx.de> <20210706154346.GT9516@bill-the-cat> <49439.1625645734@gemini.denx.de> <49e131a6-a638-41de-486b-c814233bf924@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/6imZjot8z/VxQOz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <49e131a6-a638-41de-486b-c814233bf924@gmail.com> X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: u-boot@lists.denx.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: U-Boot discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: u-boot-bounces@lists.denx.de Sender: "U-Boot" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.2 at phobos.denx.de X-Virus-Status: Clean --/6imZjot8z/VxQOz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 09:46:20AM -0400, Sean Anderson wrote: >=20 > On 7/7/21 4:15 AM, Wolfgang Denk wrote: > > Dear Tom, > >=20 > > In message <20210706154346.GT9516@bill-the-cat> you wrote: > > >=20 > > > I'm pretty confident that exactly zero people have written complex > > > U-Boot scripts and then been happy about the experience. > >=20 > > I have seen many U-Boot scripts which were pretty complex, but > > working absolutely reliably. > >=20 > > > TCL has its fans. csh has it's fans. The question isn't what's the > > > best desktop shell or general scripting language, but what's the most > > > useful in our environment an use cases. > >=20 > > Maybe you should try and do a poll of our user base which CLI they > > _want_? I doubt there will be any significant percentage voting for > > Tcl. > >=20 > > I know of a large number of systems which offer a shell interface on > > their command line, and those who don't usually use completely > > proprietary code. I know of very few examples where Tcl is being > > used. >=20 > Off the top of my head, most of the tooling for FPGAs uses TCL for > scripting. OpenOCD uses it too. >=20 > > > I don't know if it's right either. But drawing on my comment just now > > > and above about complex boot scripts, I also don't know if "it's sh b= ut > > > quirky and incomplete, WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK RIGHT" is better than "I= t's > > > TCL? I don't know that, let me hit stackoverflow and do a little > > > reading" as would be the common experience. Especially if we document > > > up-front what the quirks we have are. > >=20 > >=20 > > Point taken. But if you think this to an end, the result is: lets > > write some documentation and explain the limitations of a shell in > > U-Boot environment, and document the warts and bugs of this (or an > > updated) version of hush. This should make more users happy than > > completely new and incompatible stuff. > >=20 > >=20 > > Frankly, I believe when you run into problems with hush in U-Boot > > (even the current version) you should lean back and think about what > > you are doing. > >=20 > > U-Boot is a boot loader, and while it is powerful enough to do > > complex things, this is not necessarily the most clever approach. > > 15 years ago, I've written complex update scripts for U-Boot. This > > was easy enough to do, and worked perfectly. But there are so many > > limitations in a boot loader environment. We don't do this any > > more. Instead, we use an OS suitable for such tasks (Linux with > > SWUpdate). > >=20 > >=20 > > And talking about problems and limitations in U-Boot... Is the CLI > > really our biggest concern right now? None of our users (customers) > > has asked for a better command interpreter - the question we hear > > are more like: "When will you support IPv6?", "NFS does not work > > with recent Linux distros, will this be fixed?", "Can I download > > over WiFi?", "Can I download using HTTP/HTTPS?", "How can I harden > > U-Boot for security-critical environments?", etc. >=20 > I wanted a better shell, so I worked on it. This here is also an important point, and why I'm commenting on the series. A developer sees a problem, and works on the problem. I know I don't comment on as much stuff as I should, but for wide reaching patches, I really really try to. --=20 Tom --/6imZjot8z/VxQOz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAABCgAdFiEEGjx/cOCPqxcHgJu/FHw5/5Y0tywFAmDlsXQACgkQFHw5/5Y0 tywuogv9Fha6/8rzcFws7KY5TNoc+/QQLDBpRs3llGw1ww150xl7eSQ9J0fs9wNL a89kAGCbA79OdwOObklSeR/KC21I50sZLUqhw6MyY57Rv634SlJvjzjFDmHDia5a UdWrYrJmXCDBCKDHbmQcNgNyk4tDqam/zKn6eRhzdyNxfNN1Mhio7Aw5hq2QWnZ/ GnjaztzrxQvh3d5nnYv8HNbJbN13y/YOqJN1vVTXLMVLvsDLa13RsFL/+QFo1dgT JuuU7XVAkt3paAw/ExK/fUP3ir+eA7D91Zwa6/SaNPTFuhIkKP3GXHLxOvW9yu9f AiqbnatLBOofin65Mad2GjeddOELMGZ2AjLHLNByaej5jsfjrNC0Fn8kJihPS47q DrUFVRwJ3eDdgca9w2Y+ErUYpouCeoOtGt4LfHs7vfYtl2rzLM1eemeAZ8ScVIWM RVgU8ohIs2HopXZE8RTvEnwky+h8P+y34jxJEpwx7wB6D4Yr+jicYIfbLVhAom96 G2Yq6r1H =bKhP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/6imZjot8z/VxQOz--