IRC networks

IRC networks

[Ian Jackson]

Summary:

We have for many years used the Freenode IRC network for real-time
chat about Xen.  Unfortunately, Freenode is undergoing a crisis.

There is a dispute between, on the one hand, Andrew Lee, and on the
other hand, all (or almost all) Freenode volunteer staff.  We must
make a decision.

I have read all the publicly available materials and asked around with
my contacts.  My conclusions:

 * We do not want to continue to use irc.freenode.*.
 * We might want to use libera.chat, but:
 * Our best option is probably to move to OFTC https://www.oftc.net/


Discussion:

Firstly, my starting point.

I have been on IRC since at least 1993.  Currently my main public
networks are OFTC and Freenode.

I do not have any personal involvement with public IRC networks.  Of
the principals in the current Freenode dispute, I have only heard of
one, who is a person I have experience of in a Debian context but have
not worked closely with.

George asked me informally to use my knowledge and contacts to shed
light on the situation.  I decided that, having done my research, I
would report more formally and publicly here rather than just
informally to George.


Historical background:

 * Freenode has had drama before.  In about 2001 OFTC split off from
   Freenode after an argument over governance.  IIRC there was drama
   again in 2006.  Significant proportion of the Free Software world,
   including Debian, now use OFTC.  Debian switched in 2006.

Facts that I'm (now) pretty sure of:

 * Freenode's actual servers run on donated services; that is,
   the hardware is owned by those donating the services, and the
   systems are managed by Freenode volunteers, known as "staff".

 * The freenode domain names are currently registered to a limited
   liability company owned by Andrew Lee (rasengan).

 * At least 10 Freenode staff have quit in protest, writing similar
   resignation letters protesting about Andrew Lee's actions [1].  It
   does not appear that any Andrew Lee has the public support of any
   Freenode staff.

 * Andrew Lee claims that he "owns" Freenode.[2]

 * A large number of channel owners for particular Free Software
   projects who previously used Freenode have said they will switch
   away from Freenode.

Discussion and findings on Freenode:

There is, as might be expected, some murk about who said what to whom
when, what promises were made and/or broken, and so on.  The matter
was also complicated by the leaking earlier this week of draft(s) of
(at least one of) the Freenode staffers' resignation letters.

Andrew Lee has put forward a position statement [2].  A large part of
the thrust of that statement is allegations that the current head of
Freenode staff, tomaw, "forced out" the previous head, christel.  This
allegation is strongly disputed by by all those current (resigning)
Freenode staff I have seen comment.  In any case it does not seem to
be particularly germane; in none of my reading did tomaw seem to be
playing any kind of leading role.  tomaw is not mentioned in the
resignation letters.

Some of the links led to me to logs of discussions on #freenode.  I
read some of these in particular[3].  MB I haven't been able to verify
that these logs have not been tampered with.  Having said that and
taking the logs at face value, I found the rasengan writing there to
be disingenuous and obtuse.

Andrew Lee has been heavily involved in Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a hive of
scum and villainy, a pyramid scheme, and an environmental disaster,
all rolled into one.  This does not make me think well of Lee.

Additionally, it seems that Andrew Lee has been involved in previous
governance drama involving a different IRC network, Snoonet.

I have come to the very firm conclusion that we should have nothing to
do with Andrew Lee, and avoid using services that he has some
effective control over.

Alternatives:

The departing Freenode staff are setting up a replacement,
"libera.chat".  This is operational but still suffering from teething
problems and of course has a significant load as it deals with an
influx of users on a new setup.

On the staff and trust question: As I say, I haven't heard of any of
the Freenode staff, with one exception.  Unfortunately the one
exception does not inspire confidence in me[4] - although NB that is
only one data point.

On the other hand, Debian has had many many years of drama-free
involvement with OFTC.  OFTC has a formal governance arrangement and
it is associated with Software in the Public Interest.  I notice that
the last few OFTC'[s annual officer elections have been run partly by
Steve McIntyre.  Steve is a friend of mine (and he is a former Debian
Project Leader) and I take his involvement as a good sign.

I recommend that we switch to using OFTC as soon as possible.


Ian.


References:

Starting point for the resigning Freenode staff's side [1]:
  https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409

Andrew Lee's side [2]:
  https://gist.github.com/realrasengan/88549ec34ee32d01629354e4075d2d48

[3]
https://paste.sr.ht/~ircwright/7e751d2162e4eb27cba25f6f8893c1f38930f7c4

[4] I won't give the name since I don't want to be shitposting.

Re: IRC networks

[George Dunlap]

> On May 19, 2021, at 4:39 PM, Ian Jackson <iwj@xenproject.org> wrote:
> 

> I recommend that we switch to using OFTC as soon as possible.

Thanks, Ian.  I tend to agree with the recommendation.  I think unless someone wants to argue that we go to libera (or stick with freenode), we should go with that option.  

Normally for a decision like this we’d wait 2 weeks for counter-arguments before making it official.  Does anyone want to argue that we should move up the timetable for some reason?

I’ve registered #xendevel on oftc; I’d encourage early adopters to give it a try.

 -George

Re: IRC networks

[Ian Jackson]

George Dunlap writes ("Re: IRC networks"):
> Thanks, Ian.  I tend to agree with the recommendation.  I think unless someone wants to argue that we go to libera (or stick with freenode), we should go with that option.  
> 
> Normally for a decision like this we’d wait 2 weeks for counter-arguments before making it official.  Does anyone want to argue that we should move up the timetable for some reason?
> 
> I’ve registered #xendevel on oftc; I’d encourage early adopters to give it a try.

Recent behaviour by the new de facto operators of Freenode has been
quite egregious.  In particular, it is now against the rules to set
your topic to direct your users to libera.chat, the replacement set up
by the resigning Freenode staff.  The server operators have been
taking opver channels where the project are trying to migrate.  (I
think that probably applies to OFTC too.)

Also, the new de facto operators of Freeonode are using user count to
justify their behaviour.

I am not prepared to be counted as a user of these terrible people,
and used by them to justify their awful actions.  I will be
disconnecting from Freenode as soon as I have sent a message to this
effect to all the Xen-related channels.

I appreciately that making this decision unilaterally for myself in
this wa might be seen as jumping the gun on the commkunity decision
process.

But I am not prepared to wait any longer.  Sorry.

Ian.

Re: IRC networks

[George Dunlap]

> On May 26, 2021, at 12:04 PM, Ian Jackson <iwj@xenproject.org> wrote:
> 
> George Dunlap writes ("Re: IRC networks"):
>> Thanks, Ian.  I tend to agree with the recommendation.  I think unless someone wants to argue that we go to libera (or stick with freenode), we should go with that option.  
>> 
>> Normally for a decision like this we’d wait 2 weeks for counter-arguments before making it official.  Does anyone want to argue that we should move up the timetable for some reason?
>> 
>> I’ve registered #xendevel on oftc; I’d encourage early adopters to give it a try.
> 
> Recent behaviour by the new de facto operators of Freenode has been
> quite egregious.  In particular, it is now against the rules to set
> your topic to direct your users to libera.chat, the replacement set up
> by the resigning Freenode staff.  The server operators have been
> taking opver channels where the project are trying to migrate.  (I
> think that probably applies to OFTC too.)
> 
> Also, the new de facto operators of Freeonode are using user count to
> justify their behaviour.

Yes, I saw this too, and I agree.  I’ll try to get the xenproject webpage changed today if possible.

 -George