From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S265603AbUAGQTz (ORCPT ); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:19:55 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S265600AbUAGQTy (ORCPT ); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:19:54 -0500 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]:11693 "EHLO nwkea-mail-2.sun.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S265603AbUAGQTe (ORCPT ); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:19:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:19:19 -0500 From: Mike Waychison Subject: Re: [autofs] [RFC] Towards a Modern Autofs In-reply-to: <3FFB34C9.5010305@zytor.com> To: "H. Peter Anvin" Cc: Tim Hockin , autofs , linux-kernel Message-id: <3FFC3187.4010004@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 X-Accept-Language: en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031107 Debian/1.5-3 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime References: <3FFB12AD.6010000@sun.com> <3FFB223A.8000606@zytor.com> <20040106215018.GA911@sun.com> <3FFB316A.6000004@zytor.com> <20040106221502.GA7398@hockin.org> <20040106221502.GA7398@hockin.org> <3FFB34C9.5010305@zytor.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit H. Peter Anvin wrote: > Tim Hockin wrote: > >>On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 02:06:34PM -0800, H. Peter Anvin wrote: >> >>> >>>First of all, I'll be blunt: namespaces currently provide zero benefit >>>in Linux, and virtually noone uses them. I have discussed this with >>>Linus in the past, and neither one of us see namespaces as being worth >> >>Let's get rid of them, then. Make life that much easier. >> > > > That's what the Linux community is doing, de facto. The Linux userspace > simply is not set up to handle namespaces, and the autofs daemon is no > exception. Consider such a simple thing as /etc/mtab - /proc/mounts > which is necessary for most of the mount(8) functionality to work. It > doesn't support namespaces and really cannot be made to. > > namespace support in Linux is at the best a far-off future goal. It is > one thing to put in infrastructure, especially since it has some other > nice benefits; it's another thing to revamp all of userspace to use it; > it's nowhere close and autofs is no exception. > This is clearly not 'all of userspace'. Autofs is an exception. As is /etc/mtab. The way I see it, automounting is a 'mount facility', as are namespaces. The two should be made to work together. Yes, mount(8) should probably be fixed one way or another as well due to /etc/mtab breakage. Why? Because it too is a mount facility. There are a couple problems inherent with namespaces. Most of these are mount facilities that are broken such as mentioned above. They *should* be fixed to work nicely. Other parts of userspace get confused with namespaces, eg: cron and atd. These programs clearly need infrastructure added that somehow allows for arbitrary namespace joining/saving. If you have suggestions for how we can solve this issue, please do let me know. I'm stumped :\ I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you. One not-so-far fetched approach would be to associate cron/at jobs with automount configurations so that a namespace can be re-constructed at runtime. -- Mike Waychison Sun Microsystems, Inc. 1 (650) 352-5299 voice 1 (416) 202-8336 voice mailto: Michael.Waychison@Sun.COM http://www.sun.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NOTICE: The opinions expressed in this email are held by me, and may not represent the views of Sun Microsystems, Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Debian - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE//DGKdQs4kOxk3/MRAiiNAKCWzFHvVYY3ZxkwvEbjuY7iDA3TwgCeKw0R yxVfKgv/doq7BAsGUEjs7NI= =x36B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Mike Waychison Subject: Re: [RFC] Towards a Modern Autofs Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:19:19 -0500 Sender: autofs-bounces@linux.kernel.org Message-ID: <3FFC3187.4010004@sun.com> References: <3FFB12AD.6010000@sun.com> <3FFB223A.8000606@zytor.com> <20040106215018.GA911@sun.com> <3FFB316A.6000004@zytor.com> <20040106221502.GA7398@hockin.org> <20040106221502.GA7398@hockin.org> <3FFB34C9.5010305@zytor.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============20450460163258888==" Return-path: In-reply-to: <3FFB34C9.5010305@zytor.com> List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: autofs-bounces@linux.kernel.org To: "H. Peter Anvin" Cc: autofs , linux-kernel , Tim Hockin This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============20450460163258888== Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit H. Peter Anvin wrote: > Tim Hockin wrote: > >>On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 02:06:34PM -0800, H. Peter Anvin wrote: >> >>> >>>First of all, I'll be blunt: namespaces currently provide zero benefit >>>in Linux, and virtually noone uses them. I have discussed this with >>>Linus in the past, and neither one of us see namespaces as being worth >> >>Let's get rid of them, then. Make life that much easier. >> > > > That's what the Linux community is doing, de facto. The Linux userspace > simply is not set up to handle namespaces, and the autofs daemon is no > exception. Consider such a simple thing as /etc/mtab - /proc/mounts > which is necessary for most of the mount(8) functionality to work. It > doesn't support namespaces and really cannot be made to. > > namespace support in Linux is at the best a far-off future goal. It is > one thing to put in infrastructure, especially since it has some other > nice benefits; it's another thing to revamp all of userspace to use it; > it's nowhere close and autofs is no exception. > This is clearly not 'all of userspace'. Autofs is an exception. As is /etc/mtab. The way I see it, automounting is a 'mount facility', as are namespaces. The two should be made to work together. Yes, mount(8) should probably be fixed one way or another as well due to /etc/mtab breakage. Why? Because it too is a mount facility. There are a couple problems inherent with namespaces. Most of these are mount facilities that are broken such as mentioned above. They *should* be fixed to work nicely. Other parts of userspace get confused with namespaces, eg: cron and atd. These programs clearly need infrastructure added that somehow allows for arbitrary namespace joining/saving. If you have suggestions for how we can solve this issue, please do let me know. I'm stumped :\ I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you. One not-so-far fetched approach would be to associate cron/at jobs with automount configurations so that a namespace can be re-constructed at runtime. -- Mike Waychison Sun Microsystems, Inc. 1 (650) 352-5299 voice 1 (416) 202-8336 voice mailto: Michael.Waychison@Sun.COM http://www.sun.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NOTICE: The opinions expressed in this email are held by me, and may not represent the views of Sun Microsystems, Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Debian - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE//DGKdQs4kOxk3/MRAiiNAKCWzFHvVYY3ZxkwvEbjuY7iDA3TwgCeKw0R yxVfKgv/doq7BAsGUEjs7NI= =x36B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig15D01383AAD1AD33F2E88DFC-- --===============20450460163258888== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ autofs mailing list autofs@linux.kernel.org http://linux.kernel.org/mailman/listinfo/autofs --===============20450460163258888==--