From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S268037AbUHZI6A (ORCPT ); Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:58:00 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S267973AbUHZItR (ORCPT ); Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:49:17 -0400 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.198.35]:5257 "EHLO rwcrmhc11.comcast.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S267839AbUHZInr (ORCPT ); Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:43:47 -0400 Message-ID: <412DA2C2.6010602@namesys.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:43:46 -0700 From: Hans Reiser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk CC: Linus Torvalds , Christoph Hellwig , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Alexander Lyamin aka FLX , ReiserFS List , Jason Holt Subject: Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4 References: <20040824202521.GA26705@lst.de> <412CEE38.1080707@namesys.com> <20040825200859.GA16345@lst.de> <20040825204240.GI21964@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040825204240.GI21964@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.85.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk wrote: >On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 01:22:55PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > >>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Christoph Hellwig wrote: >> >> >>>For one thing _I_ didn't decide about xattrs anyway. And I still >>>haven't seen a design from you on -fsdevel how you try to solve the >>>problems with files as directories. >>> >>> >>Hey, files-as-directories are one of my pet things, so I have to side with >>Hans on this one. I think it just makes sense. A hell of a lot more sense >>than xattrs, anyway, since it allows scripts etc standard tools to touch >>the attributes. >> >>It's the UNIX way. >> >> > >Not if you allow link(2) on them. And not if you design and market your >stuff as a general-purpose backdoor into kernel. > What backdoor? Please spell it out. Plugins are not dynamically loadable. > Note how *EVERY* *DAMN* >*OPERATION* is made possible to override by "plugins". Which is the reason >for deadlocks in question, BTW. > >Don't fool yourself - that's what Hans is selling. Target market: ISV. > > Hunh? No, target market is hackers who like to spend a weekend dreaming up funky new kinds of files. One guy (Jason Holt, clever guy) came up with an idea for write only files for which even root cannot read the parts of the file written prior to the time root was achieved, because the encryption key is changed in a forward computable only direction with every write, and the start key is kept on another computer. Lots of folks will have plugins I would never dream of. Think of photoshop plugins, and what plugins did for photoshop. Same thing will happen to reiser4 next year (or earlier). >Marketed product: a set of hooks, the wider the better, no matter how >little sense it makes. The reason for doing that outside of core kernel: >bypassing any review and being able to control the product being sold (see >above). > >Shame that it got an actual filesystem mixed in with the marketing plans >and general insanity... > > > > I am one of those free software hippy-child anarchists who thinks that random people should come up with ideas and contribute them. You understand me well.;-) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Hans Reiser Subject: Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:43:46 -0700 Message-ID: <412DA2C2.6010602@namesys.com> References: <20040824202521.GA26705@lst.de> <412CEE38.1080707@namesys.com> <20040825200859.GA16345@lst.de> <20040825204240.GI21964@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Linus Torvalds , Christoph Hellwig , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Alexander Lyamin aka FLX , ReiserFS List , Jason Holt Return-path: list-help: list-unsubscribe: list-post: Errors-To: flx@namesys.com To: viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk In-Reply-To: <20040825204240.GI21964@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> List-Id: linux-fsdevel.vger.kernel.org viro@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk wrote: >On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 01:22:55PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > >>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Christoph Hellwig wrote: >> >> >>>For one thing _I_ didn't decide about xattrs anyway. And I still >>>haven't seen a design from you on -fsdevel how you try to solve the >>>problems with files as directories. >>> >>> >>Hey, files-as-directories are one of my pet things, so I have to side with >>Hans on this one. I think it just makes sense. A hell of a lot more sense >>than xattrs, anyway, since it allows scripts etc standard tools to touch >>the attributes. >> >>It's the UNIX way. >> >> > >Not if you allow link(2) on them. And not if you design and market your >stuff as a general-purpose backdoor into kernel. > What backdoor? Please spell it out. Plugins are not dynamically loadable. > Note how *EVERY* *DAMN* >*OPERATION* is made possible to override by "plugins". Which is the reason >for deadlocks in question, BTW. > >Don't fool yourself - that's what Hans is selling. Target market: ISV. > > Hunh? No, target market is hackers who like to spend a weekend dreaming up funky new kinds of files. One guy (Jason Holt, clever guy) came up with an idea for write only files for which even root cannot read the parts of the file written prior to the time root was achieved, because the encryption key is changed in a forward computable only direction with every write, and the start key is kept on another computer. Lots of folks will have plugins I would never dream of. Think of photoshop plugins, and what plugins did for photoshop. Same thing will happen to reiser4 next year (or earlier). >Marketed product: a set of hooks, the wider the better, no matter how >little sense it makes. The reason for doing that outside of core kernel: >bypassing any review and being able to control the product being sold (see >above). > >Shame that it got an actual filesystem mixed in with the marketing plans >and general insanity... > > > > I am one of those free software hippy-child anarchists who thinks that random people should come up with ideas and contribute them. You understand me well.;-)