From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Avi Kivity Subject: Re: [PATCH] Add VirtIO Frame Buffer Support Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:20:42 +0200 Message-ID: <4AEFE7DA.30105@redhat.com> References: <1257199759-2941-1-git-send-email-agraf@suse.de> <4AEFCBED.50804@redhat.com> <4AEFCCBA.9050408@redhat.com> <8BA1853F-11C9-44B1-9FDB-1DFDAED40E1B@suse.de> <4AEFCEDA.4030308@redhat.com> <87F51670-CB3F-431C-87B4-A8746F996C6F@suse.de> <4AEFDF35.3020806@redhat.com> <8EA2855E-4209-4CCA-9E87-1D652A72F8FE@suse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-path: In-Reply-To: <8EA2855E-4209-4CCA-9E87-1D652A72F8FE@suse.de> Sender: kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" To: Alexander Graf Cc: kvm@vger.kernel.org, qemu-devel@nongnu.org, linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, anthony@codemonkey.ws On 11/03/2009 09:50 AM, Alexander Graf wrote: > > Ok, imagine this was not this unloved S390 odd architecture but X86. > The only output choices you have are: > > 1) virtio-console > 2) VNC / SSH over network > 3) virtio-fb > > Now you want to configure a server, probably using yast and all those > nice graphical utilities, but still enable a firewall so people > outside don't intrude your machine. Well, you managed to configure the > firewall by luck to allow VNC, but now you reconfigured it and > something broke - but VNC was your only chance to access the machine. > Oops... x86 has real framebuffers, so software and people expect it. s390 doesn't. How do people manage now? >>> You also want to see boot messages, have a console login screen, >> >> virtio-console does that, except for the penguins. Better, since you >> can scroll back. > > It doesn't do graphics. Ever used yast in text mode? Once you're in, start ssh+X or vnc. Again, what do people do now? > >>> The hardware model isn't exactly new either. It's just the next >>> logical step to a full PV machine using virtio. If the virtio-fb >>> stuff turns out to be really fast and reliable, I could even imagine >>> it being the default target for kvm on ppc as well, as we can't >>> switch resolutions on the fly there atm. >>> >> >> We could with vmware-vga. > > The vmware-port stuff is pretty much tied onto X86. I don't think > modifying EAX is that easy on PPC ;-). Yes, though we can probably make it work on ppc with minimal modifications. >>>> Why? the guest will typically have networking when it's set up, so >>>> it should have network access during install. You can easily use >>>> slirp redirection and the built-in dhcp server to set this up with >>>> relatively few hassles. >>> >>> That's how I use it right now. It's no fun. >>> >> >> The toolstack should hide the unfun parts. > > You can't hide guest configuration. We as a distribution control the > kernel. We don't control the user's configuration as that's by design > the user's choice. The only thing we can do is give users meaningful > choices to choose from - and having graphics available is definitely > one of them. Well, if the user chooses not to have networking then vnc or ssh+x definitely fail. That would be a strange choice for a server machine. > Seriously, try to ask someone internally to get access to an S390. I > think you'll understand my motivations a lot better after having used > it for a bit. I actually have a s390 vm (RHEL 4 IIRC). It acts just like any other remote machine over ssh except that it's especially slow (probably the host is overloaded). Of course I wouldn't dream of trying to install something like that though. -- error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1N5EdV-0000dW-1I for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:21:05 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1N5EdQ-0000bh-HX for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:21:04 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=59699 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1N5EdQ-0000bX-3W for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:21:00 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:37308) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1N5EdP-0000Hg-FU for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:20:59 -0500 Message-ID: <4AEFE7DA.30105@redhat.com> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:20:42 +0200 From: Avi Kivity MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1257199759-2941-1-git-send-email-agraf@suse.de> <4AEFCBED.50804@redhat.com> <4AEFCCBA.9050408@redhat.com> <8BA1853F-11C9-44B1-9FDB-1DFDAED40E1B@suse.de> <4AEFCEDA.4030308@redhat.com> <87F51670-CB3F-431C-87B4-A8746F996C6F@suse.de> <4AEFDF35.3020806@redhat.com> <8EA2855E-4209-4CCA-9E87-1D652A72F8FE@suse.de> In-Reply-To: <8EA2855E-4209-4CCA-9E87-1D652A72F8FE@suse.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Qemu-devel] Re: [PATCH] Add VirtIO Frame Buffer Support List-Id: qemu-devel.nongnu.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: Alexander Graf Cc: linux-fbdev-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, qemu-devel@nongnu.org, kvm@vger.kernel.org On 11/03/2009 09:50 AM, Alexander Graf wrote: > > Ok, imagine this was not this unloved S390 odd architecture but X86. > The only output choices you have are: > > 1) virtio-console > 2) VNC / SSH over network > 3) virtio-fb > > Now you want to configure a server, probably using yast and all those > nice graphical utilities, but still enable a firewall so people > outside don't intrude your machine. Well, you managed to configure the > firewall by luck to allow VNC, but now you reconfigured it and > something broke - but VNC was your only chance to access the machine. > Oops... x86 has real framebuffers, so software and people expect it. s390 doesn't. How do people manage now? >>> You also want to see boot messages, have a console login screen, >> >> virtio-console does that, except for the penguins. Better, since you >> can scroll back. > > It doesn't do graphics. Ever used yast in text mode? Once you're in, start ssh+X or vnc. Again, what do people do now? > >>> The hardware model isn't exactly new either. It's just the next >>> logical step to a full PV machine using virtio. If the virtio-fb >>> stuff turns out to be really fast and reliable, I could even imagine >>> it being the default target for kvm on ppc as well, as we can't >>> switch resolutions on the fly there atm. >>> >> >> We could with vmware-vga. > > The vmware-port stuff is pretty much tied onto X86. I don't think > modifying EAX is that easy on PPC ;-). Yes, though we can probably make it work on ppc with minimal modifications. >>>> Why? the guest will typically have networking when it's set up, so >>>> it should have network access during install. You can easily use >>>> slirp redirection and the built-in dhcp server to set this up with >>>> relatively few hassles. >>> >>> That's how I use it right now. It's no fun. >>> >> >> The toolstack should hide the unfun parts. > > You can't hide guest configuration. We as a distribution control the > kernel. We don't control the user's configuration as that's by design > the user's choice. The only thing we can do is give users meaningful > choices to choose from - and having graphics available is definitely > one of them. Well, if the user chooses not to have networking then vnc or ssh+x definitely fail. That would be a strange choice for a server machine. > Seriously, try to ask someone internally to get access to an S390. I > think you'll understand my motivations a lot better after having used > it for a bit. I actually have a s390 vm (RHEL 4 IIRC). It acts just like any other remote machine over ssh except that it's especially slow (probably the host is overloaded). Of course I wouldn't dream of trying to install something like that though. -- error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function