From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1753381AbbBSRbF (ORCPT ); Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:31:05 -0500 Received: from mail-pd0-f176.google.com ([209.85.192.176]:38988 "EHLO mail-pd0-f176.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1753160AbbBSRbD (ORCPT ); Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:31:03 -0500 Message-ID: <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:30:58 -0800 From: Frank Rowand Reply-To: frowand.list@gmail.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pantelis Antoniou CC: Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , Ludovic Desroches , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure References: <1424271576-1952-1-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <1424271576-1952-3-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <20150218154106.GC29429@leverpostej> <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> In-Reply-To: <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > Hi Frank, > >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 18:48 , Frank Rowand wrote: >> >> On 2/19/2015 6:29 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 19:31 , Mark Rutland wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> +While this may in theory work, in practice it is very cumbersome >>>>>>> +for the following reasons: >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> +1. The act of selecting a different boot device tree blob requires >>>>>>> +a reasonably advanced bootloader with some kind of configuration or >>>>>>> +scripting capabilities. Sadly this is not the case many times, the >>>>>>> +bootloader is extremely dumb and can only use a single dt blob. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can have several bootloader builds, or even a single build with >>>>>> something like appended DTB to get an appropriate DTB if the same binary >>>>>> will otherwise work across all variants of a board. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, the same DTB will not work across all the variants of a board. >>>> >>>> I wasn't on about the DTB. I was on about the loader binary, in the case >>>> the FW/bootloader could be common even if the DTB couldn't. >>>> >>>> To some extent there must be a DTB that will work across all variants >>>> (albeit with limited utility) or the quirk approach wouldn't work… >>>> >>> >>> That’s not correct; the only part of the DTB that needs to be common >>> is the model property that would allow the quirk detection logic to fire. >>> >>> So, there is a base DTB that will work on all variants, but that only means >>> that it will work only up to the point that the quirk detector method >>> can work. So while in recommended practice there are common subsets >>> of the DTB that might work, they might be unsafe. >>> >>> For instance on the beaglebone the regulator configuration is different >>> between white and black, it is imperative you get them right otherwise >>> you risk board damage. >>> >>>>>> So it's not necessarily true that you need a complex bootloader. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> +2. On many instances boot time is extremely critical; in some cases >>>>>>> +there are hard requirements like having working video feeds in under >>>>>>> +2 seconds from power-up. This leaves an extremely small time budget for >>>>>>> +boot-up, as low as 500ms to kernel entry. The sanest way to get there >>>>>>> +is by removing the standard bootloader from the normal boot sequence >>>>>>> +altogether by having a very small boot shim that loads the kernel and >>>>>>> +immediately jumps to kernel, like falcon-boot mode in u-boot does. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given my previous comments above I don't see why this is relevant. >>>>>> You're already passing _some_ DTB here, so if you can organise for the >>>>>> board to statically provide a sane DTB that's fine, or you can resort to >>>>>> appended DTB if it's not possible to update the board configuration. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You’re missing the point. I can’t use the same DTB for each revision of the >>>>> board. Each board is similar but it’s not identical. >>>> >>>> I think you've misunderstood my point. If you program the board with the >>>> relevant DTB, or use appended DTB, then you will pass the correct DTB to >>>> the kernel without need for quirks. >>>> >>>> I understand that each variant is somewhat incompatible (and hence needs >>>> its own DTB). >>> >>> In theory it might work, in practice this does not. Ludovic mentioned that they >>> have 27 different DTBs in use at the moment. At a relatively common 60k per DTB >>> that’s 27x60k = 1.6MB of DTBs, that need to be installed. >> >> < snip > >> >> Or you can install the correct DTB on the board. You trust your manufacturing line >> to install the correct resistors. You trust your manufacturing line to install the >> correct kernel version (eg an updated version to resolve a security issue). >> >> I thought the DT blob was supposed to follow the same standard that other OS's or >> bootloaders understood. Are you willing to break that? (This is one of those >> ripples I mentioned in my other emails.) >> > > Trust no-one. > > This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn’t understand which makes people > who push product quite mad. > > Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit > the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. > > Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem. > For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what, > instead of turning a profit you’re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit > per unit. I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be installing software manually? (rhetorical question) > > No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences > for a few million units. And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works? > > And frankly I don’t care what other OSes do. If you were to take a look at the sorry DT support > they have you’d be amazed. > > I would be very surprised if there’s another OS out there that can boot with a late Linux DTB. > >> -Frank > > Regards > > — Pantelis > > PS. For a real use case please take a look at the answer Guenter gave on this thread a little > while back. > My previous comments were written after reading Guenter's comment. -Frank From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Frank Rowand Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:30:58 -0800 Message-ID: <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> References: <1424271576-1952-1-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <1424271576-1952-3-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <20150218154106.GC29429@leverpostej> <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> Reply-To: frowand.list@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Return-path: In-Reply-To: <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org To: Pantelis Antoniou Cc: Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , Ludovic Desroches , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck List-Id: devicetree@vger.kernel.org On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > Hi Frank, >=20 >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 18:48 , Frank Rowand wr= ote: >> >> On 2/19/2015 6:29 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 19:31 , Mark Rutland wr= ote: >>>> >>>>>>> +While this may in theory work, in practice it is very cumberso= me >>>>>>> +for the following reasons: >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> +1. The act of selecting a different boot device tree blob requ= ires >>>>>>> +a reasonably advanced bootloader with some kind of configurati= on or >>>>>>> +scripting capabilities. Sadly this is not the case many times,= the >>>>>>> +bootloader is extremely dumb and can only use a single dt blob= =2E >>>>>> >>>>>> You can have several bootloader builds, or even a single build w= ith >>>>>> something like appended DTB to get an appropriate DTB if the sam= e binary >>>>>> will otherwise work across all variants of a board. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, the same DTB will not work across all the variants of a board= =2E >>>> >>>> I wasn't on about the DTB. I was on about the loader binary, in th= e case >>>> the FW/bootloader could be common even if the DTB couldn't. >>>> >>>> To some extent there must be a DTB that will work across all varia= nts >>>> (albeit with limited utility) or the quirk approach wouldn't work=E2= =80=A6 >>>> >>> >>> That=E2=80=99s not correct; the only part of the DTB that needs to = be common >>> is the model property that would allow the quirk detection logic to= fire. >>> >>> So, there is a base DTB that will work on all variants, but that on= ly means >>> that it will work only up to the point that the quirk detector meth= od >>> can work. So while in recommended practice there are common subsets >>> of the DTB that might work, they might be unsafe. >>> >>> For instance on the beaglebone the regulator configuration is diffe= rent >>> between white and black, it is imperative you get them right otherw= ise >>> you risk board damage. >>> >>>>>> So it's not necessarily true that you need a complex bootloader. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> +2. On many instances boot time is extremely critical; in some = cases >>>>>>> +there are hard requirements like having working video feeds in= under >>>>>>> +2 seconds from power-up. This leaves an extremely small time b= udget for >>>>>>> +boot-up, as low as 500ms to kernel entry. The sanest way to ge= t there >>>>>>> +is by removing the standard bootloader from the normal boot se= quence >>>>>>> +altogether by having a very small boot shim that loads the ker= nel and >>>>>>> +immediately jumps to kernel, like falcon-boot mode in u-boot d= oes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given my previous comments above I don't see why this is relevan= t. >>>>>> You're already passing _some_ DTB here, so if you can organise f= or the >>>>>> board to statically provide a sane DTB that's fine, or you can r= esort to >>>>>> appended DTB if it's not possible to update the board configurat= ion. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You=E2=80=99re missing the point. I can=E2=80=99t use the same DT= B for each revision of the >>>>> board. Each board is similar but it=E2=80=99s not identical. >>>> >>>> I think you've misunderstood my point. If you program the board wi= th the >>>> relevant DTB, or use appended DTB, then you will pass the correct = DTB to >>>> the kernel without need for quirks. >>>> >>>> I understand that each variant is somewhat incompatible (and hence= needs >>>> its own DTB). >>> >>> In theory it might work, in practice this does not. Ludovic mention= ed that they >>> have 27 different DTBs in use at the moment. At a relatively common= 60k per DTB >>> that=E2=80=99s 27x60k =3D 1.6MB of DTBs, that need to be installed. >> >> < snip > >> >> Or you can install the correct DTB on the board. You trust your man= ufacturing line >> to install the correct resistors. You trust your manufacturing line= to install the >> correct kernel version (eg an updated version to resolve a security = issue). >> >> I thought the DT blob was supposed to follow the same standard that = other OS's or >> bootloaders understood. Are you willing to break that? (This is on= e of those >> ripples I mentioned in my other emails.) >> >=20 > Trust no-one. >=20 > This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn=E2=80=99t= understand which makes people > who push product quite mad. >=20 > Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in ord= er to turn a profit > the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. >=20 > Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 b= oard no problem. > For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 milli= on? Guess what, > instead of turning a profit you=E2=80=99re losing money if you only h= ave a few cents of profit > per unit. I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be instal= ling software manually? (rhetorical question) >=20 > No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have= pretty bad consequences > for a few million units.=20 And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one o= ff the line works? >=20 > And frankly I don=E2=80=99t care what other OSes do. If you were to t= ake a look at the sorry DT support > they have you=E2=80=99d be amazed. >=20 > I would be very surprised if there=E2=80=99s another OS out there tha= t can boot with a late Linux DTB. > =20 >> -Frank >=20 > Regards >=20 > =E2=80=94 Pantelis >=20 > PS. For a real use case please take a look at the answer Guenter gave= on this thread a little > while back. >=20 My previous comments were written after reading Guenter's comment. -Frank From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: frowand.list@gmail.com (Frank Rowand) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:30:58 -0800 Subject: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure In-Reply-To: <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> References: <1424271576-1952-1-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <1424271576-1952-3-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <20150218154106.GC29429@leverpostej> <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> Message-ID: <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org List-Id: linux-arm-kernel.lists.infradead.org On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: > Hi Frank, > >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 18:48 , Frank Rowand wrote: >> >> On 2/19/2015 6:29 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 19:31 , Mark Rutland wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> +While this may in theory work, in practice it is very cumbersome >>>>>>> +for the following reasons: >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> +1. The act of selecting a different boot device tree blob requires >>>>>>> +a reasonably advanced bootloader with some kind of configuration or >>>>>>> +scripting capabilities. Sadly this is not the case many times, the >>>>>>> +bootloader is extremely dumb and can only use a single dt blob. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can have several bootloader builds, or even a single build with >>>>>> something like appended DTB to get an appropriate DTB if the same binary >>>>>> will otherwise work across all variants of a board. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, the same DTB will not work across all the variants of a board. >>>> >>>> I wasn't on about the DTB. I was on about the loader binary, in the case >>>> the FW/bootloader could be common even if the DTB couldn't. >>>> >>>> To some extent there must be a DTB that will work across all variants >>>> (albeit with limited utility) or the quirk approach wouldn't work? >>>> >>> >>> That?s not correct; the only part of the DTB that needs to be common >>> is the model property that would allow the quirk detection logic to fire. >>> >>> So, there is a base DTB that will work on all variants, but that only means >>> that it will work only up to the point that the quirk detector method >>> can work. So while in recommended practice there are common subsets >>> of the DTB that might work, they might be unsafe. >>> >>> For instance on the beaglebone the regulator configuration is different >>> between white and black, it is imperative you get them right otherwise >>> you risk board damage. >>> >>>>>> So it's not necessarily true that you need a complex bootloader. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> +2. On many instances boot time is extremely critical; in some cases >>>>>>> +there are hard requirements like having working video feeds in under >>>>>>> +2 seconds from power-up. This leaves an extremely small time budget for >>>>>>> +boot-up, as low as 500ms to kernel entry. The sanest way to get there >>>>>>> +is by removing the standard bootloader from the normal boot sequence >>>>>>> +altogether by having a very small boot shim that loads the kernel and >>>>>>> +immediately jumps to kernel, like falcon-boot mode in u-boot does. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given my previous comments above I don't see why this is relevant. >>>>>> You're already passing _some_ DTB here, so if you can organise for the >>>>>> board to statically provide a sane DTB that's fine, or you can resort to >>>>>> appended DTB if it's not possible to update the board configuration. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You?re missing the point. I can?t use the same DTB for each revision of the >>>>> board. Each board is similar but it?s not identical. >>>> >>>> I think you've misunderstood my point. If you program the board with the >>>> relevant DTB, or use appended DTB, then you will pass the correct DTB to >>>> the kernel without need for quirks. >>>> >>>> I understand that each variant is somewhat incompatible (and hence needs >>>> its own DTB). >>> >>> In theory it might work, in practice this does not. Ludovic mentioned that they >>> have 27 different DTBs in use at the moment. At a relatively common 60k per DTB >>> that?s 27x60k = 1.6MB of DTBs, that need to be installed. >> >> < snip > >> >> Or you can install the correct DTB on the board. You trust your manufacturing line >> to install the correct resistors. You trust your manufacturing line to install the >> correct kernel version (eg an updated version to resolve a security issue). >> >> I thought the DT blob was supposed to follow the same standard that other OS's or >> bootloaders understood. Are you willing to break that? (This is one of those >> ripples I mentioned in my other emails.) >> > > Trust no-one. > > This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn?t understand which makes people > who push product quite mad. > > Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit > the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. > > Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem. > For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what, > instead of turning a profit you?re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit > per unit. I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be installing software manually? (rhetorical question) > > No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences > for a few million units. And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works? > > And frankly I don?t care what other OSes do. If you were to take a look at the sorry DT support > they have you?d be amazed. > > I would be very surprised if there?s another OS out there that can boot with a late Linux DTB. > >> -Frank > > Regards > > ? Pantelis > > PS. For a real use case please take a look at the answer Guenter gave on this thread a little > while back. > My previous comments were written after reading Guenter's comment. -Frank