From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Pantelis Antoniou Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 01/11] dm: serial: Update binding for PL01x serial UART Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 22:32:20 +0300 Message-ID: <5DE63FE6-A4CF-4B84-ABAC-2AAD0C377747@antoniou-consulting.com> References: <1438954951-13329-1-git-send-email-sjg@chromium.org> <1438954951-13329-2-git-send-email-sjg@chromium.org> <55CCBFB2.7050301@wwwdotorg.org> <20150813181346.GS25532@bill-the-cat> <1439492679.242.35.camel@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Return-path: In-Reply-To: <1439492679.242.35.camel@freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: u-boot-bounces@lists.denx.de Sender: "U-Boot" To: Ian Lepore Cc: Tom Rini , Stephen Warren , Arnd Bergmann , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Joe Hershberger , Benjamin Herrenschmidt , U-Boot Mailing List , Rob Herring , Geert Uytterhoeven , Grant 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+0300 Subject: [U-Boot] [PATCH v3 01/11] dm: serial: Update binding for PL01x serial UART In-Reply-To: <1439492679.242.35.camel@freebsd.org> References: <1438954951-13329-1-git-send-email-sjg@chromium.org> <1438954951-13329-2-git-send-email-sjg@chromium.org> <55CCBFB2.7050301@wwwdotorg.org> <20150813181346.GS25532@bill-the-cat> <1439492679.242.35.camel@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <5DE63FE6-A4CF-4B84-ABAC-2AAD0C377747@antoniou-consulting.com> List-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: u-boot@lists.denx.de Hi Ian, > On Aug 13, 2015, at 22:04 , Ian Lepore wrote: > > On Thu, 2015-08-13 at 14:13 -0400, Tom Rini wrote: >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 10:02:58AM -0600, Stephen Warren wrote: >>> On 08/13/2015 09:59 AM, Simon Glass wrote: >>>> Hi Linus, >>>> >>>> On 11 August 2015 at 07:00, Linus Walleij wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Simon Glass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This binding differs from that of Linux. Update it and change existing >>>>>> users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Signed-off-by: Simon Glass >>>>> (...) >>>>>> doc/device-tree-bindings/serial/pl01x.txt | 55 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++--- >>>>> >>>>> So why does U-Boot have its own copy of any bindings at all? >>>>> >>>>> This is forking the ontology of who gets to define bindings I fear. >>>>> It's a bit like have two bibles both claiming to be the word of god. >>>>> (OK maybe a hyperbolic statement, but you see what I mean.) >>>>> >>>>> Can't we just have the bindings in the Linux kernel tree please? >>>> >>>> Is there any plan to move them out of Linux and put them in a separate place? >>>> >>>> We should make an effort to sync the device tree files with Linux periodically. >>>> >>>> I quite like having the bindings in U-Boot since it makes people think >>>> about what they are adding. Are you worried that the bindings in >>>> U-Boot might evolve separately? Certainly there has been some of that. >>>> >>>> However I recently sent a series to add a few things for Raspberry Pi >>>> ("arm: rpi: Device tree modifications for U-Boot") and I don't yet see >>>> a willingness to add what some see as 'U-Boot things' to the binding. >>>> How do we address that? >>> >>> DT isn't supposed to contain "U-Boot things", but "an OS-agnostic >>> description of the hardware". So, I imagine the solution is not to >>> attempt to do that:-) >> >> This always makes me ask if the FreeBSD folks or VxWorks folks have >> adopted the "Linux" bindings or if the DT files continue to be >> "OS-agnostic" and "only functional with Linux". It was a while ago last >> I looked but it made my head hurt a little doing a quick translation for >> an SoC that I was familiar with. >> > > As the FreeBSD person who got our first SoC (imx6, only partially > supported) converted to use the Linux DT files rather than our own > homebrew mess we started with, I would say that my opinion of the > existing DT information is that it is an extension of Linux device > drivers written in a different language. > > The information available is in no way independent of the Linux device > drivers, it is exactly the information those drivers need. It is often > not the information needed in another OS with independently written > drivers. And especially it is not ordered and structured in a way that > works well with the device enumeration and instantiation models used by > another OS. > As one that had to suffer under an alternative OS?s definition of what DT is, and how bindings work (VxWorks) I would like to have some concrete example about any cases like that. In my experience the mismatch may come from exactly two things: 1) From the lack of involvement in the DT process that?s going on devicetree. True, there?s a very big Linux bias but the maintainers are reasonable and they are open on any kind of collaboration in that area. 2) From the completely half-assed way that internally DT has been implemented in other OSes besides Linux. I am still scared by the VxWorks stuff, but things are not much better in u-boot either. You just can?t slap in libfdt in there and expect all the modern bindings to work (like clock tree, pinmuxing, etc.) I would hope we?ll get things better in u-boot and I would certainly like to coordinate with FreeBSD or whoever to get something done with a reasonable API (and license) that anyone can use. Due to this, DT bindings end up OS specific which is rather insane if you think about it. > A great case in point would be i2c eeproms. What a perfect opportunity > DT would be to describe everything about the eeprom parts (total > capacity, page read/write size, whether the page address bits extend > into the bus-slave address bits, etc). It seems to me that anything > claiming to be an independent description of the hardware would have to > include such things. Instead, all the bindings define is the compatible > string. That's crazy. Why? Well, when I went and looked at the Linux > eeprom drivers it became clear why: that's all they need to know, > because everything else is hard-coded in tables in the driver source. > > So if I want to write a FreeBSD i2c eeprom driver that uses DT data, > what are my choices? I have exactly one: make my driver essentially a > clone of the Linux driver, with all the same data hard-coded in source. > I would like to point out that picking i2c eeproms as an example is rather disingenuous. i2c eeproms until recently were in the land of drivers/misc where all the oddballs are located. I?m very happy to point out that Linux does now have (in -next) an EEPROM (nvmem) framework that _is_ sane. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/2224053?page=last I even have ported the ubiquitous at24 driver to it and I?m happy to report that it is painless port. https://github.com/pantoniou/linux-beagle-track-mainline/commit/e02880fb68295cb61db71c94800b04c1656b10ba > All in all, it's not impossible for another OS to work with the DT > information that begins its life in Linux, but it's not really easy. > Why not make it easier then? > -- Ian > > Regards ? Pantelis