From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.3 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185C8C433B4 for ; Tue, 4 May 2021 06:33:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCCD6112D for ; Tue, 4 May 2021 06:33:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S229862AbhEDGe2 (ORCPT ); Tue, 4 May 2021 02:34:28 -0400 Received: from pegase2.c-s.fr ([93.17.235.10]:40733 "EHLO pegase2.c-s.fr" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229724AbhEDGe1 (ORCPT ); Tue, 4 May 2021 02:34:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (mailhub3.si.c-s.fr [172.26.127.67]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FZ95j6mwJz9sVX; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at c-s.fr Received: from pegase2.c-s.fr ([172.26.127.65]) by localhost (pegase2.c-s.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RGDPogYyxA6u; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from messagerie.si.c-s.fr (messagerie.si.c-s.fr [192.168.25.192]) by pegase2.c-s.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FZ95j5hZJz9sVW; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by messagerie.si.c-s.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8088B8B78D; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at c-s.fr Received: from messagerie.si.c-s.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (messagerie.si.c-s.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id keUR0x4FyadH; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.4.90] (unknown [192.168.4.90]) by messagerie.si.c-s.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34068B763; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [PATCH] Raise the minimum GCC version to 5.2 To: Arnd Bergmann , Matthew Wilcox , Linus Torvalds , Segher Boessenkool , Joe Perches , Miguel Ojeda , Masahiro Yamada , Albert Ou , Linux Kbuild mailing list , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Jonathan Corbet , Linux Doc Mailing List , linux-kernel , Palmer Dabbelt , Paul Walmsley , Catalin Marinas , Miguel Ojeda , Paul Mackerras , linux-riscv , linuxppc-dev , Will Deacon , Linux ARM References: <20210501151538.145449-1-masahiroy@kernel.org> <3943bc020f6227c8801907317fc113aa13ad4bad.camel@perches.com> <20210502183030.GF10366@gate.crashing.org> <81a926a3bdb70debe3ae2b13655ea8d249fb9991.camel@perches.com> <20210502203253.GH10366@gate.crashing.org> <20210502223007.GZ1847222@casper.infradead.org> From: Christophe Leroy Message-ID: <6615493a-252c-ee40-a9fa-27cf5ad8922b@csgroup.eu> Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Le 04/05/2021 à 07:30, Alexander Dahl a écrit : > Hello Arnd, > > Am Mon, May 03, 2021 at 11:25:21AM +0200 schrieb Arnd Bergmann: >> On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 9:35 AM Alexander Dahl wrote: >>> >>> Desktops and servers are all nice, however I just want to make you >>> aware, there are embedded users forced to stick to older cross >>> toolchains for different reasons as well, e.g. in industrial >>> environment. :-) >>> >>> This is no show stopper for us, I just wanted to let you be aware. >> >> Can you be more specific about what scenarios you are thinking of, >> what the motivations are for using an old compiler with a new kernel >> on embedded systems, and what you think a realistic maximum >> time would be between compiler updates? > > One reason might be certification. For certain industrial applications > like support for complex field bus protocols, you need to get your > devices tested by an external partner running extensive test suites. > This is time consuming and expensive. > > Changing the toolchain of your system then, would be a massive change > which would require recertification, while you could argue just > updating a single component like the kernel and building everything > again, does not require the whole testing process again. Not sure to follow you. Our company provides systems for Air Trafic Control, so we have the same kind of assurance quality process, but then I can't understand why you would need to upgrade your kernel at all. Today our system is based on GCC 5 and Kernel 4.14. At the time being we are using GCC 5.5 (Latest GCC 5) and kernel 4.14.232 (Latest 4.14.y). Kernel 4.14 is maintained until 2024. The day we do an upgrade, we upgrade everything including the tool chain then we go for another 6 years without major changes/re-qualification, because we can't afford a new qualitication every now and then. So really, I can't see your approach. Christophe From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.0 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4CEC433ED for ; Tue, 4 May 2021 06:34:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from desiato.infradead.org (desiato.infradead.org [90.155.92.199]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DF326112D for ; Tue, 4 May 2021 06:34:21 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 8DF326112D Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=csgroup.eu Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; 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Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [PATCH] Raise the minimum GCC version to 5.2 To: Arnd Bergmann , Matthew Wilcox , Linus Torvalds , Segher Boessenkool , Joe Perches , Miguel Ojeda , Masahiro Yamada , Albert Ou , Linux Kbuild mailing list , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Jonathan Corbet , Linux Doc Mailing List , linux-kernel , Palmer Dabbelt , Paul Walmsley , Catalin Marinas , Miguel Ojeda , Paul Mackerras , linux-riscv , linuxppc-dev , Will Deacon , Linux ARM References: <20210501151538.145449-1-masahiroy@kernel.org> <3943bc020f6227c8801907317fc113aa13ad4bad.camel@perches.com> <20210502183030.GF10366@gate.crashing.org> <81a926a3bdb70debe3ae2b13655ea8d249fb9991.camel@perches.com> <20210502203253.GH10366@gate.crashing.org> <20210502223007.GZ1847222@casper.infradead.org> From: Christophe Leroy Message-ID: <6615493a-252c-ee40-a9fa-27cf5ad8922b@csgroup.eu> Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: fr X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20210503_233342_668992_9DBDCB46 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 16.53 ) X-BeenThere: linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by messagerie.si.c-s.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8088B8B78D; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at c-s.fr Received: from messagerie.si.c-s.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (messagerie.si.c-s.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id keUR0x4FyadH; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.4.90] (unknown [192.168.4.90]) by messagerie.si.c-s.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34068B763; Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [PATCH] Raise the minimum GCC version to 5.2 To: Arnd Bergmann , Matthew Wilcox , Linus Torvalds , Segher Boessenkool , Joe Perches , Miguel Ojeda , Masahiro Yamada , Albert Ou , Linux Kbuild mailing list , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Jonathan Corbet , Linux Doc Mailing List , linux-kernel , Palmer Dabbelt , Paul Walmsley , Catalin Marinas , Miguel Ojeda , Paul Mackerras , linux-riscv , linuxppc-dev , Will Deacon , Linux ARM References: <20210501151538.145449-1-masahiroy@kernel.org> <3943bc020f6227c8801907317fc113aa13ad4bad.camel@perches.com> <20210502183030.GF10366@gate.crashing.org> <81a926a3bdb70debe3ae2b13655ea8d249fb9991.camel@perches.com> <20210502203253.GH10366@gate.crashing.org> <20210502223007.GZ1847222@casper.infradead.org> From: Christophe Leroy Message-ID: <6615493a-252c-ee40-a9fa-27cf5ad8922b@csgroup.eu> Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 08:33:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: fr X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20210503_233342_668992_9DBDCB46 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 16.53 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org CgpMZSAwNC8wNS8yMDIxIMOgIDA3OjMwLCBBbGV4YW5kZXIgRGFobCBhIMOpY3JpdMKgOgo+IEhl bGxvIEFybmQsCj4gCj4gQW0gTW9uLCBNYXkgMDMsIDIwMjEgYXQgMTE6MjU6MjFBTSArMDIwMCBz Y2hyaWViIEFybmQgQmVyZ21hbm46Cj4+IE9uIE1vbiwgTWF5IDMsIDIwMjEgYXQgOTozNSBBTSBB bGV4YW5kZXIgRGFobCA8YWRhQHRob3JzaXMuY29tPiB3cm90ZToKPj4+Cj4+PiBEZXNrdG9wcyBh bmQgc2VydmVycyBhcmUgYWxsIG5pY2UsIGhvd2V2ZXIgSSBqdXN0IHdhbnQgdG8gbWFrZSB5b3UK Pj4+IGF3YXJlLCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgZW1iZWRkZWQgdXNlcnMgZm9yY2VkIHRvIHN0aWNrIHRvIG9s ZGVyIGNyb3NzCj4+PiB0b29sY2hhaW5zIGZvciBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcmVhc29ucyBhcyB3ZWxsLCBl LmcuIGluIGluZHVzdHJpYWwKPj4+IGVudmlyb25tZW50LiA6LSkKPj4+Cj4+PiBUaGlzIGlzIG5v IHNob3cgc3RvcHBlciBmb3IgdXMsIEkganVzdCB3YW50ZWQgdG8gbGV0IHlvdSBiZSBhd2FyZS4K Pj4KPj4gQ2FuIHlvdSBiZSBtb3JlIHNwZWNpZmljIGFib3V0IHdoYXQgc2NlbmFyaW9zIHlvdSBh cmUgdGhpbmtpbmcgb2YsCj4+IHdoYXQgdGhlIG1vdGl2YXRpb25zIGFyZSBmb3IgdXNpbmcgYW4g b2xkIGNvbXBpbGVyIHdpdGggYSBuZXcga2VybmVsCj4+IG9uIGVtYmVkZGVkIHN5c3RlbXMsIGFu ZCB3aGF0IHlvdSB0aGluayBhIHJlYWxpc3RpYyBtYXhpbXVtCj4+IHRpbWUgd291bGQgYmUgYmV0 d2VlbiBjb21waWxlciB1cGRhdGVzPwo+IAo+IE9uZSByZWFzb24gbWlnaHQgYmUgY2VydGlmaWNh dGlvbi4gRm9yIGNlcnRhaW4gaW5kdXN0cmlhbCBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMKPiBsaWtlIHN1cHBvcnQg Zm9yIGNvbXBsZXggZmllbGQgYnVzIHByb3RvY29scywgeW91IG5lZWQgdG8gZ2V0IHlvdXIKPiBk ZXZpY2VzIHRlc3RlZCBieSBhbiBleHRlcm5hbCBwYXJ0bmVyIHJ1bm5pbmcgZXh0ZW5zaXZlIHRl c3Qgc3VpdGVzLgo+IFRoaXMgaXMgdGltZSBjb25zdW1pbmcgYW5kIGV4cGVuc2l2ZS4KPiAKPiBD aGFuZ2luZyB0aGUgdG9vbGNoYWluIG9mIHlvdXIgc3lzdGVtIHRoZW4sIHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgbWFz c2l2ZSBjaGFuZ2UKPiB3aGljaCB3b3VsZCByZXF1aXJlIHJlY2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiwgd2hpbGUg eW91IGNvdWxkIGFyZ3VlIGp1c3QKPiB1cGRhdGluZyBhIHNpbmdsZSBjb21wb25lbnQgbGlrZSB0 aGUga2VybmVsIGFuZCBidWlsZGluZyBldmVyeXRoaW5nCj4gYWdhaW4sIGRvZXMgbm90IHJlcXVp cmUgdGhlIHdob2xlIHRlc3RpbmcgcHJvY2VzcyBhZ2Fpbi4KCk5vdCBzdXJlIHRvIGZvbGxvdyB5 b3UuCgpPdXIgY29tcGFueSBwcm92aWRlcyBzeXN0ZW1zIGZvciBBaXIgVHJhZmljIENvbnRyb2ws IHNvIHdlIGhhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUga2luZCBvZiBhc3N1cmFuY2UgcXVhbGl0eSAKcHJvY2Vzcywg YnV0IHRoZW4gSSBjYW4ndCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdoeSB5b3Ugd291bGQgbmVlZCB0byB1cGdyYWRl IHlvdXIga2VybmVsIGF0IGFsbC4KClRvZGF5IG91ciBzeXN0ZW0gaXMgYmFzZWQgb24gR0NDIDUg YW5kIEtlcm5lbCA0LjE0LiBBdCB0aGUgdGltZSBiZWluZyB3ZSBhcmUgdXNpbmcgR0NDIDUuNSAo TGF0ZXN0IApHQ0MgNSkgYW5kIGtlcm5lbCA0LjE0LjIzMiAoTGF0ZXN0IDQuMTQueSkuIEtlcm5l bCA0LjE0IGlzIG1haW50YWluZWQgdW50aWwgMjAyNC4KClRoZSBkYXkgd2UgZG8gYW4gdXBncmFk ZSwgd2UgdXBncmFkZSBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGluY2x1ZGluZyB0aGUgdG9vbCBjaGFpbiB0aGVuIHdl IGdvIGZvciBhbm90aGVyIDYgCnllYXJzIHdpdGhvdXQgbWFqb3IgY2hhbmdlcy9yZS1xdWFsaWZp Y2F0aW9uLCBiZWNhdXNlIHdlIGNhbid0IGFmZm9yZCBhIG5ldyBxdWFsaXRpY2F0aW9uIGV2ZXJ5 IG5vdyAKYW5kIHRoZW4uCgoKU28gcmVhbGx5LCBJIGNhbid0IHNlZSB5b3VyIGFwcHJvYWNoLgoK Q2hyaXN0b3BoZQoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18KbGludXgtYXJtLWtlcm5lbCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGludXgtYXJtLWtlcm5lbEBsaXN0cy5p bmZyYWRlYWQub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5pbmZyYWRlYWQub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v bGludXgtYXJtLWtlcm5lbAo=