From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E07DC6FD1D for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 13:13:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S231476AbjCWNNZ (ORCPT ); Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:13:25 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:40444 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S231634AbjCWNNU (ORCPT ); Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:13:20 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32B752101 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id fm20-20020a05600c0c1400b003ead37e6588so1143667wmb.5 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:13:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679577194; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=hqAgsQ7SR/YaQPt3+Q8QV7woeCKWICY+eeF1yJw1BaQ=; b=HH7L6aRQ2R26ghzviLSDYP6GZXal1ygqby9MwFWSq11tdire8721KWIz24dskuvBb5 +foStd5yRRejcIHWRwtraTa2UurccFNoX5fP056q45VaqMQhQwRAHWmz3OuL2GI4/CIv 0J+UgY3aIhukuCXgzXoZQKwiTEpZ8t+LYaB7HC3Y5E/GTfZBhR1mME4vel+5fzPop+hk 0Aevs2eQDrVA1tw5tSrEICgburgSFeyR0JmeH9P+4ZpK+V82qYS9R0fkBGjuZDdB//E8 f1XpCT4dJHyN1Tq/COIOuyokZsubCZyiz24VE4HTQfQShBsR702nJtreIRgjPpCDxpqb 259w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679577194; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hqAgsQ7SR/YaQPt3+Q8QV7woeCKWICY+eeF1yJw1BaQ=; b=JwoOSprD+bL2kBBFYywiUCeme5Uigi7iX4GTCgMthD/hPLcKfCpIMrbC2DC7cft43K NN0zaLStEcese6sIzziRD3U7fs7TbRg0vZKqfjnveDogjXqCEGUDQPt4FEIQhBECKpwB OAb54/usVSoDK4uZhnDoUwzIL6C9heQWau/OMk+8BfHoomGSHDLnoekDFulm4xxcyoDi LVUlTE0FHYYPp62QWGn0l9iFz/XdGW+sx2X+sL+xSAVWVkBcXnw7lMBCz18CfSfPmWjP 7q4vtvFxr3ZTUmwCFiT10Ex0zjnb7O3kfxdSvohX2HGtHd83uvzFJsGuroYpXU3zjRGw 00uw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKULBUGrduh+xthPy6CwoXVl90Lti0TEsd5LV/7mve7FkeqWqIkW 20bcVkhp2Sz6a0QeL5cuVTc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/Ynd7Otq/Rd5dcvH78vctMlJma7kJYVHuapAZ0+EBCgZ5XbpQybnc90oK+uy0mbcyhIQdprQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:224b:b0:3ed:6ba7:66d9 with SMTP id a11-20020a05600c224b00b003ed6ba766d9mr2601109wmm.5.1679577194597; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.160] ([170.253.51.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o14-20020a05600c378e00b003ed2276cd0dsm1824788wmr.38.2023.03.23.06.13.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <82ff42f9-629f-53ea-bbfd-0f98f365184e@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 14:13:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.8.0 Subject: Re: Revert "Many Pages: Remove references to C89" Content-Language: en-US To: Sam James Cc: Matt Jolly , linux-man@vger.kernel.org References: <20230310015150.3545768-1-Matt.Jolly@footclan.ninja> <8899aff7-4193-dd54-4488-234b1a6cee83@gmail.com> <877cv8xc6e.fsf@gentoo.org> From: Alejandro Colomar In-Reply-To: <877cv8xc6e.fsf@gentoo.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------oXQvsLj15IkJiVnuHDSRht0P" Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------oXQvsLj15IkJiVnuHDSRht0P Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------N8NEKt94xbMwlVJxJ26ZBZi5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Alejandro Colomar To: Sam James Cc: Matt Jolly , linux-man@vger.kernel.org Message-ID: <82ff42f9-629f-53ea-bbfd-0f98f365184e@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Revert "Many Pages: Remove references to C89" References: <20230310015150.3545768-1-Matt.Jolly@footclan.ninja> <8899aff7-4193-dd54-4488-234b1a6cee83@gmail.com> <877cv8xc6e.fsf@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <877cv8xc6e.fsf@gentoo.org> --------------N8NEKt94xbMwlVJxJ26ZBZi5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sam On 3/23/23 06:32, Sam James wrote: >=20 > Alejandro Colomar writes: >=20 >> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] >> Hi Matt, >> >> On 3/10/23 02:51, Matt Jolly wrote: >>> Hi All >>> >>> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to raise an issue that= has been causing inconvenience >>> for me (and potentially others). The recent removal of C89 informatio= n from man pages >>> (72b349dd8c209d7375d4d4f76e2315943d654ee9) has put me in a difficult = situation. >>> As I continue to work on code that adheres to the C89 style, such as = cURL, I am unable to quickly >>> determine if a particular function can be used or if it was introduce= d in a later standard like C99. >>> This slows down my workflow and hampers my productivity. >>> >>> Therefore, I kindly request that we revert the changes made in the "M= any pages: Remove references to C89" patch. >>> Furthermore, I urge everyone to recognize the importance of this info= rmation and ensure it is not removed from man pages in the future. >> >> The main problem was that the existing info about C89 was not consiste= nt. >> Some pages declared APIs being standard since C89, while others didn't= =2E >> Incorrect info isn't much better than no info. >> >> I'm curious about cURL's real need for C89. I see that cURL uses GNU >> extensions (-std=3Dgnu89), which actually pulls most of C99[1] (I thin= k >> it pulls the entire C library, and most of the core language). >=20 > I don't really agree with it, but the gist is at > https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2022/11/17/considering-c99-for-curl/. >=20 > The general principle here being two things, I guess: > 1. It's pretty useful to have this information (even if it's just > on a best-effort basis) because I can cite it in arguments even if > a project is using >=3D C99. >=20 > 2. People expect the information to be there, so omitting it ends up > giving the impression something just isn't in C89, rather than the > reader realising the information is removed from the man pages entirely= =2E >=20 > but also, and this was the case for Matt here: >=20 > 3. I don't always have a choice. Especially doing distribution work, > I end up patching and contributing to all sorts of projects, and while > I wish many things would use newer C, they're either dead projects, or > their maintainers are of a strong mind on the matter. >=20 >> >> Virtually all (even MS, which has always been the last in this) >> systems support C99; why would you consciously avoid it? Is there >> any system that doesn't yet support it? Which are the C libraries >> that you need to support that don't provide C99 functions by default >> (or at all)? >> >> I'd like to really understand the need for C89 in 2023. >=20 > i.e. what I'm saying is that it's not so much about the need, but rathe= r > that changing the man pages just ends up inconveniencing people who > aren't really happy about using C89 either. Makes sense. And yeah, history is always useful, even for corner cases, which is why we still document things like 4.0BSD. I'm almost finished in adding the HISTORY section and reorganizing VERSIONS and STANDARDS (and NOTES). This week or next week, I'll push the commit. So far, I've done: 536 files changed, 4704 insertions(+), 4278 deletions(-) And there are still 353 pages pending. :) But the change is looking quite good. I think it will be a nice improvement. Cheers, Alex >=20 > best, > sam --=20 GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5 --------------N8NEKt94xbMwlVJxJ26ZBZi5-- --------------oXQvsLj15IkJiVnuHDSRht0P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE6jqH8KTroDDkXfJAnowa+77/2zIFAmQcUGkACgkQnowa+77/ 2zJ40g//SLF/p3UsCe6JBZl/lS5Om5D3gIaV/S5sGJ2F5k6P/l4RqE+3grDSroJk rRYfClEeo4pllMxxeeP1RYuHNwRChbDGQuN5XoHl/XukFf0zzs9KsmgeWikmbDTZ SeuXTlXkdpU1ggaKVqLKJFCI4QuSKCef1VILHXSWtDpr0B9geLLzUn4URAcVbGJz D5Z4LCiU4n7xDyvDwP3Ukdvq+uxpkWWJ4kaF6MsHp2yuhEiE3G0Ti4ij4ezumtYI vaqnxXW7UXnE2xMq7rVtO2PyGNiQkOi0AQnbXWCDHgRYnc2iu+e+wY/z8e1jfyTY 3BWZFdX494q6A9sW/eFo97wQlditweHmWHeK1ojGerJE4uH5GQHnKk4F8AvROMxx BlrEoxeJLgTstVfhj9qUAhi51b0Z7AZ1sKtrF54D/EDamZuOpgBF9DpspX8UrKsC 3vWrYXaRpla6d9sXf4A+/hyUXWrP4TQmIcc7JOqwddM9bnKn0WlnkXOPKtv0Z9Tw 3DCEzS8HHMT2ed3oLi4XcRFILUgZq4uiSj/hJodcaXyImWqq5grAKLhH0iMriCiP 80fWU4kVDZNLcynq11rcQReIL0ey46SrgfqAxVqMx9E/HEOqETc/p6JB4lJonuMa dY2dgEzJ2pLXTp9ULShJb4IXJwoEFKhYJli/m+5flaf6zNSIKDI= =9Jrd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------oXQvsLj15IkJiVnuHDSRht0P--