From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Vitaly Kuznetsov Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] mm, hotplug: get rid of auto_online_blocks Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:10:34 +0100 Message-ID: <87h92xfc0l.fsf@vitty.brq.redhat.com> References: <20170303082723.GB31499@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20170303183422.6358ee8f@nial.brq.redhat.com> <20170306145417.GG27953@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20170307134004.58343e14@nial.brq.redhat.com> <20170309125400.GI11592@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20170313115554.41d16b1f@nial.brq.redhat.com> <20170313122825.GO31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> <87a88pgwv0.fsf@vitty.brq.redhat.com> <20170313131924.GP31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> <87pohlfg36.fsf@vitty.brq.redhat.com> <20170313143206.GQ31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: In-Reply-To: <20170313143206.GQ31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> (Michal Hocko's message of "Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:32:06 +0100") Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org To: Michal Hocko Cc: Igor Mammedov , Heiko Carstens , linux-mm@kvack.org, Andrew Morton , Greg KH , "K. Y. Srinivasan" , David Rientjes , Daniel Kiper , linux-api@vger.kernel.org, LKML , linux-s390@vger.kernel.org, xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org, qiuxishi@huawei.com, toshi.kani@hpe.com, xieyisheng1@huawei.com, slaoub@gmail.com, iamjoonsoo.kim@lge.com, vbabka@suse.cz List-Id: linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org Michal Hocko writes: > On Mon 13-03-17 14:42:37, Vitaly Kuznetsov wrote: >> > >> > What is the API those guests ask for the memory? And who is actually >> > responsible to ask for that memory? Is it a kernel or userspace >> > solution? >> >> Whatever, this can even be a system administrator running >> 'free'. > > I am pretty sure that 'free' will not give you additional memory but > let's be serious here... > If this is solely about monitoring from > userspace and requesting more memory from the userspace then I would > consider arguing about timely hotplug operation as void because there is > absolutely no guarantee to do the request itself in a timely fashion. > >> Hyper-V driver sends si_mem_available() and >> vm_memory_committed() metrics to the host every second and this can be >> later queried by any tool (e.g. powershell script). > > And how exactly is this related to the acpi hotplug which you were > arguing needs the timely handling as well? > What I meant to say is that there is no single 'right' way to get memory usage from a VM, make a decision somewhere (in the hypervisor, on some other host or even in someone's head) and issue a command to add more memory. I don't know what particular tools people use with ESX/KVM VMs but I think that multiple options are available. >> >> With udev-style memory onlining they should be aware of page >> >> tables and other in-kernel structures which require allocation so they >> >> need to add memory slowly and gradually or they risk running into OOM >> >> (at least getting some processes killed and these processes may be >> >> important). With in-kernel memory hotplug everything happens >> >> synchronously and no 'slowly and gradually' algorithm is required in >> >> all tools which may trigger memory hotplug. >> > >> > What prevents those APIs being used reasonably and only asks so much >> > memory as they can afford? I mean 1.5% available memory necessary for >> > the hotplug is not all that much. Or more precisely what prevents to ask >> > for this additional memory in a synchronous way? >> >> The knowledge about the fact that we need to add memory slowly and >> wait till it gets onlined is not obvious. > > yes it is and we cannot afford to give a better experience with the > implementation that requires to have memory to online a memory. Actually, we need memory to add memory, not to online it. And as I said before, this is a real issue which requires addressing, it should always be possible to add more memory (and to online already added memory if these events are separated). > >> AFAIR when you hotplug memory >> to Windows VMs there is no such thing as 'onlining', and no brain is >> required, a simple script 'low memory -> add mory memory' always >> works. Asking all these script writers to think twice before issuing a >> memory add command memory sounds like too much (to me). > > Pardon me, but not requiring a brain while doing something on Windows > VMs is not really an argument... Why? Windows (or any other OS) is just an example that things can be done in a different way, otherwise we'll end up with arguments like "it was always like that in Linux so it's good". -- Vitaly -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@kvack.org. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Don't email: email@kvack.org From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1752298AbdCMPKt (ORCPT ); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:10:49 -0400 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:58424 "EHLO mx1.redhat.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1751122AbdCMPKk (ORCPT ); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:10:40 -0400 From: Vitaly Kuznetsov To: Michal Hocko Cc: Igor Mammedov , Heiko Carstens , linux-mm@kvack.org, Andrew Morton , Greg KH , "K. Y. Srinivasan" , David Rientjes , Daniel Kiper , linux-api@vger.kernel.org, LKML , linux-s390@vger.kernel.org, xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org, qiuxishi@huawei.com, toshi.kani@hpe.com, xieyisheng1@huawei.com, slaoub@gmail.com, iamjoonsoo.kim@lge.com, vbabka@suse.cz Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH] mm, hotplug: get rid of auto_online_blocks References: <20170303082723.GB31499@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20170303183422.6358ee8f@nial.brq.redhat.com> <20170306145417.GG27953@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20170307134004.58343e14@nial.brq.redhat.com> <20170309125400.GI11592@dhcp22.suse.cz> <20170313115554.41d16b1f@nial.brq.redhat.com> <20170313122825.GO31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> <87a88pgwv0.fsf@vitty.brq.redhat.com> <20170313131924.GP31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> <87pohlfg36.fsf@vitty.brq.redhat.com> <20170313143206.GQ31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:10:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20170313143206.GQ31518@dhcp22.suse.cz> (Michal Hocko's message of "Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:32:06 +0100") Message-ID: <87h92xfc0l.fsf@vitty.brq.redhat.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.27]); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:10:40 +0000 (UTC) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Michal Hocko writes: > On Mon 13-03-17 14:42:37, Vitaly Kuznetsov wrote: >> > >> > What is the API those guests ask for the memory? And who is actually >> > responsible to ask for that memory? Is it a kernel or userspace >> > solution? >> >> Whatever, this can even be a system administrator running >> 'free'. > > I am pretty sure that 'free' will not give you additional memory but > let's be serious here... > If this is solely about monitoring from > userspace and requesting more memory from the userspace then I would > consider arguing about timely hotplug operation as void because there is > absolutely no guarantee to do the request itself in a timely fashion. > >> Hyper-V driver sends si_mem_available() and >> vm_memory_committed() metrics to the host every second and this can be >> later queried by any tool (e.g. powershell script). > > And how exactly is this related to the acpi hotplug which you were > arguing needs the timely handling as well? > What I meant to say is that there is no single 'right' way to get memory usage from a VM, make a decision somewhere (in the hypervisor, on some other host or even in someone's head) and issue a command to add more memory. I don't know what particular tools people use with ESX/KVM VMs but I think that multiple options are available. >> >> With udev-style memory onlining they should be aware of page >> >> tables and other in-kernel structures which require allocation so they >> >> need to add memory slowly and gradually or they risk running into OOM >> >> (at least getting some processes killed and these processes may be >> >> important). With in-kernel memory hotplug everything happens >> >> synchronously and no 'slowly and gradually' algorithm is required in >> >> all tools which may trigger memory hotplug. >> > >> > What prevents those APIs being used reasonably and only asks so much >> > memory as they can afford? I mean 1.5% available memory necessary for >> > the hotplug is not all that much. Or more precisely what prevents to ask >> > for this additional memory in a synchronous way? >> >> The knowledge about the fact that we need to add memory slowly and >> wait till it gets onlined is not obvious. > > yes it is and we cannot afford to give a better experience with the > implementation that requires to have memory to online a memory. Actually, we need memory to add memory, not to online it. And as I said before, this is a real issue which requires addressing, it should always be possible to add more memory (and to online already added memory if these events are separated). > >> AFAIR when you hotplug memory >> to Windows VMs there is no such thing as 'onlining', and no brain is >> required, a simple script 'low memory -> add mory memory' always >> works. Asking all these script writers to think twice before issuing a >> memory add command memory sounds like too much (to me). > > Pardon me, but not requiring a brain while doing something on Windows > VMs is not really an argument... Why? Windows (or any other OS) is just an example that things can be done in a different way, otherwise we'll end up with arguments like "it was always like that in Linux so it's good". -- Vitaly