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Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:49:55 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: David Ahern , Zachary Dodds , Ishaan Gandhi CC: Andreas Roeseler , David Miller , Network Development , Stephen Hemminger , Willem de Bruijn , "junipeross20@cs.hmc.edu" Subject: RE: rfc5837 and rfc8335 Thread-Topic: rfc5837 and rfc8335 Thread-Index: AQHXHr2uLkiNuGD0bUKudZz6Kl88daqRUnMAgABYvQCAAmKXAIAG//Zg Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:49:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210317221959.4410-1-ishaangandhi@gmail.com> <5E97397E-7028-46E8-BC0D-44A3E30C41A4@gmail.com> <45eff141-30fb-e8af-5ca5-034a86398ac9@gmail.com> <6a7f33a5-13ca-e009-24ac-fde59fb1c080@gmail.com> <5A3D866B-F2BF-4E30-9C2E-4C8A2CFABDF2@gmail.com> <994ee235-2b1f-bec8-6f3d-bb73c1a76c3a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <994ee235-2b1f-bec8-6f3d-bb73c1a76c3a@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.6.0.76 dlp-reaction: no-action msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL0PR05MB5316.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 29c60ba5-0f18-41fa-f117-08d8f2c1eaec X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Mar 2021 14:49:55.5692 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bXoG2px+hrPOK54++tTJw4Q6HOSGDOV7T6tK0q6homeF3jRq/CNlTPui9D805n//Ram2qkHx8xjvm+z5V49iWA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6976 X-Proofpoint-GUID: -LPMdicxyskXQ_CPpAyimPNY31yaR7WM X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: -LPMdicxyskXQ_CPpAyimPNY31yaR7WM X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369,18.0.761 definitions=2021-03-29_09:2021-03-26,2021-03-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2103250000 definitions=main-2103290113 Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: netdev@vger.kernel.org David, Juniper networks is motivated to promote RFC 5837 now, as opposed to eleven= years ago, because the deployment of parallel links between routers is bec= oming more common Large network operators frequently require more than 400 Gbps connectivity = between their backbone routers. However, the largest interfaces available c= an only handle 400 Gbps. So, parallel links are required. Moreover, it is f= requently cheaper to deploy 4 100 Gbps interfaces than a single 400 Gbps in= terface. So, it is not uncommon to see two routers connected by many, paral= lel 100 Gbps links. RFC 5837 allows a network operator to trace a packet in= terface to interface, as opposed to node to node. I think that you are correct in saying that: - LINUX is more likely to be implemented on a host than a router - Therefore, LINUX hosts will not send RFC 5837 ICMP extensions often However, LINUX hosts are frequently used in network management stations. Th= erefore, it would be very useful if LINUX hosts could parse and display inc= oming RFC 5837 extensions, just as they display RFC 4950 ICMP extensions. Juniper networks plans to support RFC 5837 on one platform in an upcoming r= elease and on other platforms soon after that. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: David Ahern =20 Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 11:19 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Zachary Dodds ; Ish= aan Gandhi Cc: Andreas Roeseler ; David Miller ; Network Development ; Stephen Hemming= er ; Willem de Bruijn ; junipeross20@cs.hmc.edu Subject: Re: rfc5837 and rfc8335 [External Email. Be cautious of content] On 3/23/21 10:39 AM, Ron Bonica wrote: > Hi Folks, > > > > The rationale for RFC 8335 can be found in Section 5.0 of that document. > Currently, ICMP ECHO and ECHO RESPONSE messages can be used to=20 > determine the liveness of some interfaces. However, they cannot=20 > determine the liveness of: > > > > * An unnumbered IPv4 interface > * An IPv6 interface that has only a link-local address > > > > A router can have hundreds, or even thousands of interfaces that fall=20 > into these categories. > > > > The rational for RFC 5837 can be found in the Introduction to that=20 > document. When a node sends an ICMP TTL Expired message, the node=20 > reports that a packet has expired on it. However, the source address=20 > of the ICMP TTL Expired message doesn't necessarily identify the=20 > interface upon which the packet arrived. So, TRACEROUTE can be relied=20 > upon to identify the nodes that a packet traverses along its delivery=20 > path. But it cannot be relied upon to identify the interfaces that a=20 > packet traversed along its deliver path. > > It's not a question of the rationale; the question is why add this support = to Linux now? RFC 5837 is 11 years old. Why has no one cared to add support= before now? What tooling supports it? What other NOS'es support it to real= ly make the feature meaningful? e.g., Do you know what Juniper products sup= port RFC 5837 today? More than likely Linux is the end node of the traceroute chain, not the tra= nsit or path nodes. With Linux, the ingress interface can lost in the layer= s (NIC port, vlan, bond, bridge, vrf, macvlan), and to properly support eit= her you need to return information about the right one. Unnumbered interfaces can make that more of a challenge.