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From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
To: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
Cc: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
	Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Ondrej Mosnacek <omosnace@redhat.com>,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	James Morris <jmorris@namei.org>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
	Stephen Smalley <stephen.smalley.work@gmail.com>,
	SElinux list <selinux@vger.kernel.org>,
	ppc-dev <linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org>,
	Linux-Fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	Network Development <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Jiri Olsa <jolsa@redhat.com>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@kernel.org>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] lockdown,selinux: avoid bogus SELinux lockdown permission checks
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 11:17:02 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAHk-=wiUVqHN76YUwhkjZzwTdjMMJf_zN4+u7vEJjmEGh3recw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <64552a82-d878-b6e6-e650-52423153b624@schaufler-ca.com>

On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:11 AM Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
>
> You have fallen into a common fallacy. The fact that the "code runs"
> does not assure that the "system works right". In the security world
> we face this all the time, often with performance expectations. In this
> case the BPF design has failed [..]

I think it's the lockdown patches that have failed. They did the wrong
thing, they didn't work,

The report in question is for a regression.

THERE ARE NO VALID ARGUMENTS FOR REGRESSIONS.

Honestly, security people need to understand that "not working" is not
a success case of security. It's a failure case.

Yes, "not working" may be secure. But security in that case is *pointless*.

              Linus

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
To: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
Cc: Jiri Olsa <jolsa@redhat.com>, Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	"David S. Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	SElinux list <selinux@vger.kernel.org>,
	Network Development <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	Stephen Smalley <stephen.smalley.work@gmail.com>,
	James Morris <jmorris@namei.org>,
	Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	Ondrej Mosnacek <omosnace@redhat.com>,
	Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@kernel.org>,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
	Linux-Fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	ppc-dev <linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] lockdown,selinux: avoid bogus SELinux lockdown permission checks
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 11:17:02 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAHk-=wiUVqHN76YUwhkjZzwTdjMMJf_zN4+u7vEJjmEGh3recw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <64552a82-d878-b6e6-e650-52423153b624@schaufler-ca.com>

On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:11 AM Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
>
> You have fallen into a common fallacy. The fact that the "code runs"
> does not assure that the "system works right". In the security world
> we face this all the time, often with performance expectations. In this
> case the BPF design has failed [..]

I think it's the lockdown patches that have failed. They did the wrong
thing, they didn't work,

The report in question is for a regression.

THERE ARE NO VALID ARGUMENTS FOR REGRESSIONS.

Honestly, security people need to understand that "not working" is not
a success case of security. It's a failure case.

Yes, "not working" may be secure. But security in that case is *pointless*.

              Linus

  reply	other threads:[~2021-06-05 18:18 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 74+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-05-17  9:20 [PATCH v2] lockdown,selinux: avoid bogus SELinux lockdown permission checks Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-05-17  9:20 ` [PATCH v2] lockdown, selinux: " Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-05-17 11:00 ` [PATCH v2] lockdown,selinux: " Michael Ellerman
2021-05-17 11:00   ` Michael Ellerman
2021-05-26 11:44   ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-05-26 11:44     ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-05-27  4:28     ` James Morris
2021-05-27  4:28       ` James Morris
2021-05-27 14:18       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-27 14:18         ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28  1:37 ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28  1:37   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28  7:09   ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28  7:09     ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28  9:53     ` Jiri Olsa
2021-05-28  9:53       ` Jiri Olsa
2021-05-28  9:56     ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28  9:56       ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 10:16       ` Jiri Olsa
2021-05-28 10:16         ` Jiri Olsa
2021-05-28 11:47       ` Jiri Olsa
2021-05-28 11:47         ` Jiri Olsa
2021-05-28 11:54         ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 11:54           ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 13:42       ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-05-28 13:42         ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-05-28 14:20         ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 14:20           ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 15:54           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 15:54             ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 15:47     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 15:47       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 18:10       ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 18:10         ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-28 22:52         ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 22:52           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-29 18:48         ` Paul Moore
2021-05-29 18:48           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-31  8:24           ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-05-31  8:24             ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-01 20:47             ` Paul Moore
2021-06-01 20:47               ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 12:40               ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-02 12:40                 ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-02 15:13                 ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 15:13                   ` Paul Moore
2021-06-03 18:52                   ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-03 18:52                     ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-04  4:50                     ` Paul Moore
2021-06-04  4:50                       ` Paul Moore
2021-06-04 18:02                       ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-04 18:02                         ` Daniel Borkmann
2021-06-04 23:34                         ` Paul Moore
2021-06-04 23:34                           ` Paul Moore
2021-06-05  0:08                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-06-05  0:08                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2021-06-05 18:10                             ` Casey Schaufler
2021-06-05 18:10                               ` Casey Schaufler
2021-06-05 18:17                               ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2021-06-05 18:17                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-06-06  2:11                                 ` Paul Moore
2021-06-06  2:11                                   ` Paul Moore
2021-06-06  1:30                             ` Paul Moore
2021-06-06  1:30                               ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 13:39   ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-06-02 13:39     ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-06-03 17:46     ` Paul Moore
2021-06-03 17:46       ` Paul Moore
2021-06-08 11:01       ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-06-08 11:01         ` Ondrej Mosnacek
2021-06-09  2:40         ` Paul Moore
2021-06-09  2:40           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 13:58 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-05-28 13:58   ` Steven Rostedt

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