From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1754805AbbBTRag (ORCPT ); Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:30:36 -0500 Received: from mail-wg0-f42.google.com ([74.125.82.42]:37225 "EHLO mail-wg0-f42.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752804AbbBTRaf convert rfc822-to-8bit (ORCPT ); Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:30:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> References: <1424271576-1952-3-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <20150218154106.GC29429@leverpostej> <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> <53F2F94C-0C43-4A54-B8CD-EEC454A0AC19@konsulko.com> <54E742F2.80506@hurleysoftware.com> <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> From: Rob Herring Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:30:12 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure To: Peter Hurley , Pantelis Antoniou , Frank Rowand , Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck Cc: Ludovic Desroches Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches wrote: > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote: >> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >> > >> >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >> >>> Hi Frank, [...] >> >>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn’t understand which makes people >> >>> who push product quite mad. >> >>> >> >>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit >> >>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. >> >>> >> >>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem. >> >>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what, >> >>> instead of turning a profit you’re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit >> >>> per unit. >> >> >> >> I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be installing software >> >> manually? (rhetorical question) >> >> >> > >> > Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogrammed and is soldered as is. >> > >> > Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board makes logistics considerably >> > easier. >> > >> > Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the correct dtb (even if it’s present >> > on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone. >> > >> > Factory time == money, errors == money. >> > >> >>> >> >>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences >> >>> for a few million units. >> >> >> >> And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works? >> >> >> > >> > The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in and functional testing if you’re >> > lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might make financial sense to just ship >> > as is and deal with recalls, if you’re reasonably happy after a little bit of statistical sampling. >> > >> > Hardware is hard :) >> >> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing process at all. >> >> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom images for the >> White and Black? You _trust_ them to get that right, or more likely, you >> have process control procedures in place so that you don't get 1 million Blacks >> flashed with the White eeprom image. >> >> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not as if the >> eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice versa). >> >> 3 For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD cards intended >> for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000 Blacks; at >> that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit. And that has >> nothing to do with what image you provided. >> > > As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during the > production, having several DTB files will increase the risk. Then package them as a single file. You can even use DT to do that. See u-boot FIT image. Rob From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Rob Herring Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:30:12 -0600 Message-ID: References: <1424271576-1952-3-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <20150218154106.GC29429@leverpostej> <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> <53F2F94C-0C43-4A54-B8CD-EEC454A0AC19@konsulko.com> <54E742F2.80506@hurleysoftware.com> <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Return-path: In-Reply-To: <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org To: Peter Hurley , Pantelis Antoniou , Frank Rowand , Mark Rutland , "devicetree@vger.kernel.org" , Tony Lindgren , Koen Kooi , Nicolas Ferre , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , Grant Likely , "linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org" , Matt Porter , Guenter Roeck Cc: Ludovic Desroches List-Id: devicetree@vger.kernel.org On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches wrote: > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote: >> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >> > >> >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand = wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >> >>> Hi Frank, [...] >> >>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn=E2=80= =99t understand which makes people >> >>> who push product quite mad. >> >>> >> >>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, i= n order to turn a profit >> >>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturabil= ity. >> >>> >> >>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. Fo= r 1 board no problem. >> >>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 = million? Guess what, >> >>> instead of turning a profit you=E2=80=99re losing money if you o= nly have a few cents of profit >> >>> per unit. >> >> >> >> I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be = installing software >> >> manually? (rhetorical question) >> >> >> > >> > Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogrammed = and is soldered as is. >> > >> > Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board mak= es logistics considerably >> > easier. >> > >> > Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the cor= rect dtb (even if it=E2=80=99s present >> > on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone. >> > >> > Factory time =3D=3D money, errors =3D=3D money. >> > >> >>> >> >>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can= have pretty bad consequences >> >>> for a few million units. >> >> >> >> And you produce a few million units before testing that the first= one off the line works? >> >> >> > >> > The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in a= nd functional testing if you=E2=80=99re >> > lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might make= financial sense to just ship >> > as is and deal with recalls, if you=E2=80=99re reasonably happy af= ter a little bit of statistical sampling. >> > >> > Hardware is hard :) >> >> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing proce= ss at all. >> >> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom image= s for the >> White and Black? You _trust_ them to get that right, or more lik= ely, you >> have process control procedures in place so that you don't get 1 = million Blacks >> flashed with the White eeprom image. >> >> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not a= s if the >> eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice ve= rsa). >> >> 3 For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD card= s intended >> for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000 B= lacks; at >> that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit. A= nd that has >> nothing to do with what image you provided. >> > > As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during the > production, having several DTB files will increase the risk. Then package them as a single file. You can even use DT to do that. See u-boot FIT image. Rob From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: robherring2@gmail.com (Rob Herring) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:30:12 -0600 Subject: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure In-Reply-To: <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> References: <1424271576-1952-3-git-send-email-pantelis.antoniou@konsulko.com> <20150218154106.GC29429@leverpostej> <20150218173115.GG29429@leverpostej> <76BD1B22-BAED-4205-9B34-186907CE0217@konsulko.com> <54E613E7.2020405@gmail.com> <670D0881-DBF0-45E8-A502-A6DB2B77A750@konsulko.com> <54E61DD2.3060002@gmail.com> <53F2F94C-0C43-4A54-B8CD-EEC454A0AC19@konsulko.com> <54E742F2.80506@hurleysoftware.com> <20150220143533.GA29908@odux.rfo.atmel.com> Message-ID: To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org List-Id: linux-arm-kernel.lists.infradead.org On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches wrote: > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote: >> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >> > >> >> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote: >> >>> Hi Frank, [...] >> >>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesn?t understand which makes people >> >>> who push product quite mad. >> >>> >> >>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit >> >>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability. >> >>> >> >>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem. >> >>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what, >> >>> instead of turning a profit you?re losing money if you only have a few cents of profit >> >>> per unit. >> >> >> >> I'm not installing physical components manually. Why would I be installing software >> >> manually? (rhetorical question) >> >> >> > >> > Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogrammed and is soldered as is. >> > >> > Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board makes logistics considerably >> > easier. >> > >> > Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the correct dtb (even if it?s present >> > on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone. >> > >> > Factory time == money, errors == money. >> > >> >>> >> >>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences >> >>> for a few million units. >> >> >> >> And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works? >> >> >> > >> > The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in and functional testing if you?re >> > lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might make financial sense to just ship >> > as is and deal with recalls, if you?re reasonably happy after a little bit of statistical sampling. >> > >> > Hardware is hard :) >> >> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing process at all. >> >> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom images for the >> White and Black? You _trust_ them to get that right, or more likely, you >> have process control procedures in place so that you don't get 1 million Blacks >> flashed with the White eeprom image. >> >> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not as if the >> eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice versa). >> >> 3 For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD cards intended >> for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000 Blacks; at >> that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit. And that has >> nothing to do with what image you provided. >> > > As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during the > production, having several DTB files will increase the risk. Then package them as a single file. You can even use DT to do that. See u-boot FIT image. Rob