From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1755410Ab3GQO2A (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:28:00 -0400 Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com ([74.125.82.180]:62905 "EHLO mail-we0-f180.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1754061Ab3GQO17 (ORCPT ); Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:27:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20130717010244.GM4994@xanatos> References: <20130715204135.GH15531@xanatos> <1373926109.17876.221.camel@gandalf.local.home> <20130715223615.GI15531@xanatos> <20130716211235.GG4994@xanatos> <20130716221821.GB21611@1wt.eu> <20130716223957.GJ4994@xanatos> <51E5DB59.2050209@schaufler-ca.com> <20130717010244.GM4994@xanatos> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 09:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [ATTEND] How to act on LKML From: Felipe Contreras To: Sarah Sharp Cc: Casey Schaufler , Willy Tarreau , Olivier Galibert , David Lang , Steven Rostedt , Linus Torvalds , Ingo Molnar , Guenter Roeck , Greg Kroah-Hartman , Dave Jones , Linux Kernel Mailing List , Andrew Morton , stable , Darren Hart , ksummit-2013-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > I've provided examples and personal stories in an attempt to give > incentive to change. Those are just stories; things that happened. What you need to provide is *evidence* that if the community changes, things will be better, and unless you have a study of series of collaborative groups like the Linux kernel, that demonstrates that suppressing swearing has a positive effect in the community, I'd say all you have is an *opinion*. > I cannot force on anyone the will to change, nor > would I want to. I cannot "manage" change in others. I can only > politely point out that the current community behavior does hurt other > people, and keep people from contributing. Which people have been hurt? Mauro? I would like to hear that from him. Another recipient of your stories was Rafael, and he already said he didn't feel personally attacked. I have also been a recipient of Linus' cursing, and I don't see any reason to change. But the more important question is; was the cursing justified? In the case of Mauro, it most definitely was, because as Linus mentioned; he broke the #1 rule of Linux, and that can't be tolerated from a lieutenant. So no, your stories don't prove that any people were hurt, justified or not. But even that is not important, what is important is; was the *project* hurt? I'd say you would need more than a couple of stories to prove that. > I'm not demanding change. I'm merely asking to discuss the possibly of > change at KS. Everything is possible, the question is not "*can* it change", the question is "*should* it change". And again, you need evidence to show that it should. Cheers. -- Felipe Contreras