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Wed, 03 Nov 2021 09:45:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211026002344.405160-1-sjg@chromium.org> <20211027192514.GL8284@bill-the-cat> In-Reply-To: <20211027192514.GL8284@bill-the-cat> From: Simon Glass Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 10:45:11 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 00/26] fdt: Make OF_BOARD a boolean option To: Tom Rini Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Ozog?= , Aaron Williams , Albert Aribaud , Alexander Graf , Anastasiia Lukianenko , Andre Przywara , Bin Meng , Heinrich Schuchardt , Ilias Apalodimas , Jerry Van Baren , Linus Walleij , Mark Kettenis , Matthias Brugger , Michal Simek , Oleksandr Andrushchenko , Sean Anderson , Stephen Warren , Stephen Warren , Thomas Fitzsimmons , Tuomas Tynkkynen , U-Boot Mailing List , QEMU Developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: u-boot@lists.denx.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: U-Boot discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: u-boot-bounces@lists.denx.de Sender: "U-Boot" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.2 at phobos.denx.de X-Virus-Status: Clean Hi Tom, On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 13:25, Tom Rini wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:23:21PM -0600, Simon Glass wrote: > > Hi Fran=C3=A7ois, > > > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 09:14, Fran=C3=A7ois Ozog wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 16:08, Simon Glass wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Fran=C3=A7ois, > > >> > > >> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 00:07, Fran=C3=A7ois Ozog wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Hi Simon > > >> > > > >> > Position unchanged on this series: adding fake dts for boards that= generate their device tree in the dts directory is not good. If you have t= hem in documentation the it is acceptable. > > >> > > >> I think we are going to have to disagree on this one. I actually use= d > > >> the qemu one in testing/development recently. We have to have a way = to > > >> develop in-tree with U-Boot. It does not impinge on any of your use > > >> cases, so far as I know. > > > > > > I am not the only one in disagreement... You just saw Alex B=C3=A9n= =C3=A9e from Qemu saying the same thing. > > > I understand the advanced debug/development scenario you mention. > > > But locating the DT files in the dts directory is mis-leading the con= tributors to think that they need to compile the DT for the targeted platfo= rms. > > > For your advanced scenario, you can still have the dts in the documen= tation area, or whatever directory (except dts). compile it and supply to U= -Boot. > > > > We have this situation with rpi 1, 2 and 3 and I don't believe anyone > > has noticed. U-Boot handles the build automatically. If you turn off > > OF_BOARD, it will use the U-Boot devicetree always so you know what is > > going on. > > That we have to have so many separate rpi build targets, and can't just > use rpm_arm64 and add rpi_arm32 is not a good feature. The various rpi > configs that use CONFIG_OF_EMBED are on your list of things that need to > be cleaned up, yes? Yes, it should use CONFIG_OF_SEPARATE. It think it didn't for historical reasons, but not sure why. > > > We can add a message to U-Boot indicating where the devicetree came > > from, perhaps? That might be useful given everything that is going on. > > > > As in this case, quite often in these discussions I struggle to > > understand what is behind the objection. Is it that your customers are > > demanding that devicetrees become private, secret data, not included > > in open-source projects? Or is it just the strange case of QEMU that > > is informing your thinking? I know of at least one project where the > > first-stage bootloader produces a devicetree and no one has the source > > for it. I believe TF-A was created for licensing reasons...so can you > > be a bit clearer about what the problem actually is? If a board is > > in-tree in U-Boot I would like it to have a devicetree there, at least > > until we have a better option. At the very least, it MUST be > > discoverable and it must be possible to undertake U-Boot development > > easily without a lot of messing around. > > What I don't understand here is why or how U-Boot is supposed to become > the source of truth for device trees. The general goal is that the > device tree be something that actually comes along on the hardware, > because it's stable enough and correct enough that it's not going to be > changed from one OS kernel release to the next. That should be where > the correct and true tree comes from, the device itself. Is that the confusion here? I am not saying that U-Boot becomes the 'source of truth' (horrible term). Where did that idea come from? By hardware you mean firmware, I think. If you are developing firmware, you need control of the devicetree. It is part of the firmware. Regards, Simon From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D72EC433F5 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 16:47:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 758D860FC2 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2021 16:47:25 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.1 mail.kernel.org 758D860FC2 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=chromium.org Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nongnu.org Received: from localhost ([::1]:52624 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miJQ4-0002w6-8M for qemu-devel@archiver.kernel.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 12:47:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57250) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miJOB-0001Rg-86 for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 12:45:31 -0400 Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]:44901) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1miJO9-0005pP-1n for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 12:45:26 -0400 Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id e5so5526169uam.11 for ; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 09:45:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kbAdkb+mMgFkJKEBlk1bhYF13vWlwmLo+faLmONdCnw=; b=CgVzUoxkakdpnJSJJ6Y7GVnx/8Mj7GGLRC3zmXXLx1UC7OAghfu7GHJVGEYZIig4uZ lMH48iT70P9kXZJHbkLe2/SAdWAoI+uCtL/K+r3AF56vYTpKbiAsmTwZnsl5j1V8y6yT WNim3bFXb0bXzxqyx0laO3sglDF2C3o47utZ0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kbAdkb+mMgFkJKEBlk1bhYF13vWlwmLo+faLmONdCnw=; b=8QzgppMK9tyF74+yWAR+GTc5QjUZw3mFS0ZzYshYAnAhtZjmRyqz7nY2mVfp3woHNY QDd+rxH9ZtfLE3zrQLlPJpsHtvbeX8bWu9DGSYxdXiTHWqBhrFxm+0pb2UAhs+0kfY8Z oNtzWBTmJWspFsyLI7NIEDnIdHLuSHlxRTHFKP6UQAfP3fIKDgPca1Bb42eTXlHTGiEF x+1QMLQ76bIG5lPrWDsrK/WtBJfClPByodEbrOVj082tsXHJRMG0WmihTHwcbxSGl/zB likuRbhqtqq8I7w5SrDrcGIt/hbn++A213KWcLUc7HGsGO9C2MIKOlLzz+kcZbscmA+2 73rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530YMHPZl85nSVssaw3p4dtC7/OhqahMXNj17pqsLYyhE4wSD31I Q/5wWCSnWlngKcNFY9rmYkAalkp83a6XQRtvHUn6XA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2lDJmkX6qfb4xr2ZubUuYGpw2YqF3H2ZrrBDculOIz1dtosX3e75/VSOZHYl76lspMarNDeB/JIExjGqWibk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c308:: with SMTP id r8mr25159283vsj.20.1635957923532; Wed, 03 Nov 2021 09:45:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211026002344.405160-1-sjg@chromium.org> <20211027192514.GL8284@bill-the-cat> In-Reply-To: <20211027192514.GL8284@bill-the-cat> From: Simon Glass Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 10:45:11 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 00/26] fdt: Make OF_BOARD a boolean option To: Tom Rini Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::933; envelope-from=sjg@google.com; helo=mail-ua1-x933.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -99 X-Spam_score: -10.0 X-Spam_bar: ---------- X-Spam_report: (-10.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.717, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Linus Walleij , Thomas Fitzsimmons , QEMU Developers , Sean Anderson , U-Boot Mailing List , Mark Kettenis , =?UTF-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Ozog?= , Stephen Warren , Oleksandr Andrushchenko , Heinrich Schuchardt , Michal Simek , Jerry Van Baren , Stephen Warren , Andre Przywara , Alexander Graf , Anastasiia Lukianenko , Albert Aribaud , Matthias Brugger , Ilias Apalodimas , Aaron Williams , Tuomas Tynkkynen , Bin Meng Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: "Qemu-devel" Hi Tom, On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 13:25, Tom Rini wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:23:21PM -0600, Simon Glass wrote: > > Hi Fran=C3=A7ois, > > > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 09:14, Fran=C3=A7ois Ozog wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 16:08, Simon Glass wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Fran=C3=A7ois, > > >> > > >> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 00:07, Fran=C3=A7ois Ozog wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Hi Simon > > >> > > > >> > Position unchanged on this series: adding fake dts for boards that= generate their device tree in the dts directory is not good. If you have t= hem in documentation the it is acceptable. > > >> > > >> I think we are going to have to disagree on this one. I actually use= d > > >> the qemu one in testing/development recently. We have to have a way = to > > >> develop in-tree with U-Boot. It does not impinge on any of your use > > >> cases, so far as I know. > > > > > > I am not the only one in disagreement... You just saw Alex B=C3=A9n= =C3=A9e from Qemu saying the same thing. > > > I understand the advanced debug/development scenario you mention. > > > But locating the DT files in the dts directory is mis-leading the con= tributors to think that they need to compile the DT for the targeted platfo= rms. > > > For your advanced scenario, you can still have the dts in the documen= tation area, or whatever directory (except dts). compile it and supply to U= -Boot. > > > > We have this situation with rpi 1, 2 and 3 and I don't believe anyone > > has noticed. U-Boot handles the build automatically. If you turn off > > OF_BOARD, it will use the U-Boot devicetree always so you know what is > > going on. > > That we have to have so many separate rpi build targets, and can't just > use rpm_arm64 and add rpi_arm32 is not a good feature. The various rpi > configs that use CONFIG_OF_EMBED are on your list of things that need to > be cleaned up, yes? Yes, it should use CONFIG_OF_SEPARATE. It think it didn't for historical reasons, but not sure why. > > > We can add a message to U-Boot indicating where the devicetree came > > from, perhaps? That might be useful given everything that is going on. > > > > As in this case, quite often in these discussions I struggle to > > understand what is behind the objection. Is it that your customers are > > demanding that devicetrees become private, secret data, not included > > in open-source projects? Or is it just the strange case of QEMU that > > is informing your thinking? I know of at least one project where the > > first-stage bootloader produces a devicetree and no one has the source > > for it. I believe TF-A was created for licensing reasons...so can you > > be a bit clearer about what the problem actually is? If a board is > > in-tree in U-Boot I would like it to have a devicetree there, at least > > until we have a better option. At the very least, it MUST be > > discoverable and it must be possible to undertake U-Boot development > > easily without a lot of messing around. > > What I don't understand here is why or how U-Boot is supposed to become > the source of truth for device trees. The general goal is that the > device tree be something that actually comes along on the hardware, > because it's stable enough and correct enough that it's not going to be > changed from one OS kernel release to the next. That should be where > the correct and true tree comes from, the device itself. Is that the confusion here? I am not saying that U-Boot becomes the 'source of truth' (horrible term). Where did that idea come from? By hardware you mean firmware, I think. If you are developing firmware, you need control of the devicetree. It is part of the firmware. Regards, Simon