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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jun 2021 04:47:34.5197 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: b61c8803-16f3-4c35-9b17-6f65f441df86 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dKCFVLFQXpBE0mEe3dZSHnpknpsSAiW2+2L8Vs9V7jtC2s8jikJkV42aW/P2dGFhlbM78aFJjkSKnD8KqffMGg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO6PR04MB7810 X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20210606_214740_694122_EAF60905 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 31.86 ) X-BeenThere: linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "linux-riscv" Errors-To: linux-riscv-bounces+linux-riscv=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Guo Ren > Sent: 07 June 2021 09:52 > To: Anup Patel > Cc: Atish Patra ; Palmer Dabbelt > ; anup@brainfault.org; drew@beagleboard.org; > Christoph Hellwig ; wefu@redhat.com; lazyparser@gmail.com; > linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; linux- > arch@vger.kernel.org; linux-sunxi@lists.linux.dev; guoren@linux.alibaba.com; > Paul Walmsley > Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/3] riscv: Add DMA_COHERENT support > > Hi Anup, > > On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 11:38 AM Anup Patel wrote: > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Guo Ren > > > Sent: 06 June 2021 22:42 > > > To: Anup Patel ; Atish Patra > > > > > > Cc: Palmer Dabbelt ; anup@brainfault.org; > > > drew@beagleboard.org; Christoph Hellwig ; > > > wefu@redhat.com; lazyparser@gmail.com; > > > linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org; linux- kernel@vger.kernel.org; > > > linux-arch@vger.kernel.org; linux- sunxi@lists.linux.dev; > > > guoren@linux.alibaba.com; Paul Walmsley > > > Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/3] riscv: Add DMA_COHERENT support > > > > > > Hi Anup and Atish, > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 2:00 PM Anup Patel > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Palmer Dabbelt > > > > > Sent: 03 June 2021 09:43 > > > > > To: guoren@kernel.org > > > > > Cc: anup@brainfault.org; drew@beagleboard.org; Christoph Hellwig > > > > > ; Anup Patel ; > wefu@redhat.com; > > > > > lazyparser@gmail.com; linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org; linux- > > > > > kernel@vger.kernel.org; linux-arch@vger.kernel.org; linux- > > > > > sunxi@lists.linux.dev; guoren@linux.alibaba.com; Paul Walmsley > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/3] riscv: Add DMA_COHERENT support > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 29 May 2021 17:30:18 PDT (-0700), Palmer Dabbelt wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 21 May 2021 17:36:08 PDT (-0700), guoren@kernel.org > wrote: > > > > > >> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 3:15 PM Anup Patel > > > > > >> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:24 PM Drew Fustini > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 08:06:17AM +0200, Christoph > > > > > >>> > Hellwig > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>> > > On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 02:05:00PM +0800, Guo Ren > wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > Since the existing RISC-V ISA cannot solve this > > > > > >>> > > > problem, it is better to provide some configuration > > > > > >>> > > > for the SOC vendor to > > > > > customize. > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > We've been talking about this problem for close to five years. > > > > > >>> > > So no, if you don't manage to get the feature into the > > > > > >>> > > ISA it can't be supported. > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > Isn't it a good goal for Linux to support the capabilities > > > > > >>> > present in the SoC that a currently being fab'd? > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > I believe the CMO group only started last year [1] so the > > > > > >>> > RV64GC SoCs that are going into mass production this year > > > > > >>> > would not have had the opporuntiy of utilizing any RISC-V > > > > > >>> > ISA extension for handling cache management. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The current Linux RISC-V policy is to only accept patches > > > > > >>> for frozen or ratified ISA specs. > > > > > >>> (Refer, Documentation/riscv/patch-acceptance.rst) > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> This means even if emulate CMO instructions in OpenSBI, the > > > > > >>> Linux patches won't be taken by Palmer because CMO > > > > > >>> specification is still in draft stage. > > > > > >> Before CMO specification release, could we use a sbi_ecall to > > > > > >> solve the current problem? This is not against the > > > > > >> specification, when CMO is ready we could let users choose to > > > > > >> use the new CMO in > > > Linux. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> From a tech view, CMO trap emulation is the same as sbi_ecall. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Also, we all know how much time it takes for RISCV > > > > > >>> international to freeze some spec. Judging by that we are > > > > > >>> looking at another > > > > > >>> 3-4 years at minimum. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for being slow here, this thread got buried. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to work with a handful of folks at the RISC-V > > > > > > foundation to try and get a subset of the various > > > > > > in-development specifications (some simple CMOs, something > > > > > > about non-caching in the page tables, and some way to prevent > > > > > > speculative accesse from generating coherence traffic that will break > non-coherent systems). > > > > > > I'm not sure we can get this together quickly, but I'd prefer > > > > > > to at least try before we jump to taking vendor-specificed behavior > here. > > > > > > It's obviously an up-hill battle to try and get specifications > > > > > > through the process and I'm certainly not going to promise it > > > > > > will work, but I'm hoping that the impending need to avoid > > > > > > forking the ISA will be sufficient to get people behind > > > > > > producing some specifications in a timely > > > > > fashion. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wasn't aware than this chip had non-coherent devices until I > > > > > > saw this thread, so we'd been mostly focused on the Beagle V chip. > > > > > > That was in a sense an easier problem because the SiFive IP in > > > > > > it was never designed to have non-coherent devices so we'd > > > > > > have to make anything work via a series of slow workarounds, > > > > > > which would make emulating the eventually standardized > > > > > > behavior reasonable in terms of performance (ie, everything > > > > > > would be super slow so who really > > > cares). > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think relying on some sort of SBI call for the CMOs > > > > > > whould be such a performance hit that it would prevent these > > > > > > systems from being viable, but assuming you have reasonable > > > > > > performance on your non-cached accesses then that's probably > > > > > > not going to be viable to trap and emulate. At that point it > > > > > > really just becomes silly to pretend that we're still making > > > > > > things work by emulating the eventually ratified behavior, as > > > > > > anyone who actually tries to use this thing to do IO would > > > > > > need out of tree patches. I'm not sure exactly what the plan > > > > > > is for the page table bits in the specification right now, but > > > > > > if you can give me a pointer to some documentation then I'm > > > > > > happy to try and push for something > > > compatible. > > > > > > > > > > > > If we can't make the process work at the foundation then I'd > > > > > > be strongly in favor of just biting the bullet and starting to > > > > > > take vendor-specific code that's been implemented in hardware > > > > > > and is necessarry to make things work acceptably. That's > > > > > > obviously a sub-optimal solution as it'll lead to a bunch of > > > > > > ISA fragmentation, but at least we'll be able to keep the > > > > > > software stack > > > together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you tell us when these will be in the hands of users? > > > > > > That's pretty important here, as I don't want to be blocking > > > > > > real users from having their hardware work. IIRC there were > > > > > > some plans to distribute early boards, but it looks like the > > > > > > foundation got involved and I guess I lost the thread at that point. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry this is all such a headache, but hopefully we can get > > > > > > things sorted out. > > > > > > > > > > I talked with some of the RISC-V foundation folks, we're not > > > > > going to have an ISA specification for the non-coherent stuff > > > > > any time soon. I took a look at this code and I definately > > > > > don't want to take it as is, but I'm not opposed to taking > > > > > something that makes the > > > hardware work as long as it's a lot cleaner. > > > > > We've already got two of these non-coherent chips, I'm sure more > > > > > will come, and I'd rather have the extra headaches than make > > > > > everyone fork the software stack. > > > > > > > > Thanks for confirming. The CMO extension is still in early stages > > > > so it will certainly take more time for them. After CMO extension > > > > is finalized, it will take some more time to have actual RISC-V > > > > platforms with > > > CMO implemented. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After talking to Atish it looks like there's likely to be an SBI > > > > > extension to handle the CMOs, which should let us avoid the bulk > > > > > of the vendor-specific behavior in the kernel. I know some > > > > > people are worried about adding to the SBI surface. I'm worried > > > > > about that too, but that's way better than sticking a bunch of > > > > > vendor-specific instructions into the kernel. The SBI extension > > > > > should make for a straight-forward cache flush implementation in > > > > > Linux, so let's just plan on > > > that getting through quickly (as has been done before). > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree. We can have just a single SBI call which is meant > > > > for DMA sync purpose only which means it will flush/invalidate > > > > pages from all cache levels irrespective of the cache hierarchy (i.e. > > > > flush/invalidate to RAM). The CMO extension might more generic > > > > cache operations which can target any cache level. > > > > > > > > I am already preparing a write-up for SBI DMA sync call in SBI > > > > spec. I will share it with you separately as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately we've yet to come up with a way to handle the > > > > > non-cacheable mappings without introducing a degree of > > > > > vendor-specific behavior or seriously impacting performance > > > > > (mark them as not valid and deal with them in the trap handler). > > > > > I'm not really sure it counts as supporting the hardware if it's > > > > > massively slow, so that really leaves us with vendor-specific > > > > > mappings as the only > > > option to make these chips work. > > > > > > > > A RISC-V platform can have non-cacheable mappings is following > > > > possible > > > > ways: > > > > 1) Fixed physical address range as non-cacheable using PMAs > > > > 2) Custom page table attributes > > > > 3) Svpmbt extension being defined by RVI > > > > > > > > Atish and me both think it is possible to have RISC-V specific DMA > > > > ops implementation which can handle all above case. Atish is > > > > already working on DMA ops implementation for RISC-V. > > > Not only DMA ops, but also icache_sync & __vdso_icache_sync. Please > > > have a look at: > > > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-riscv/1622970249-50770-12-git-send-ema > > > il- > > > guoren@kernel.org/T/#u > > > > The icache_sync and __vdso_icache_sync will have to be addressed > > differently. The SBI DMA sync extension cannot address this. > Agree > > > > > It seems Allwinner D1 have more non-standard stuff: > > 1) Custom PTE bits for IO-coherent access > > 2) Custom data cache flush/invalidate for DMA sync > > 3) Custom icache flush/invalidate > Yes, but 3) is a performance optimization, not critical for running. > > > > > Other hand, BeagleV has only two problems: > > 1) Custom physical address range for IO-coherent access > > 2) Custom L2 cache flush/invalidate for DMA sync > https://github.com/starfive- > tech/linux/commit/d4c4044c08134dca8e5eaaeb6d3faf97dc453b6d > > Currently, they still use DMA sync with DMA descriptor, are you sure they > have minor memory physical address. > > > > > From above #2, can be solved by SBI DMA sync call and Linux DMA ops > > for both BeagleV and Allwinner D1 > > > > On BeagleV, issue #1 can be solved using "dma-ranges". > > > > On Allwinner D1, issues #1 and #3 need to be addressed separately. > > > > I think supporting BeagleV in upstream Linux is relatively easy > > compared to Allwinner D1. > > > > @Guo, please check if you can reserve dedicated physical address range > > for IO-coherent access (just like BeagleV). If yes, then we can tackle > > issue #1 for Allwinner > > D1 using "dma-ranges" DT property. > There is no dedicated physical address range for IO-coherent access in D1. But > the solution you mentioned couldn't solve all requirements. > Only one mirror physical address range is not enough, we need at least three > (Normal, DMA desc, frame buffer). How many non-coherent devices you really have? I am guess lot of critical devices on Allwinner D1 are not coherent with CPU. The problem for Allwinner D1 is even worst than I thought. If such critical high through-put devices are not cache coherent with CPU then I am speechless about Allwinner D1 situation. > And that will triple the memory physical address which can't be accepted by > our users from the hardware design cost view. > > "dma-ranges" DT property is a big early MIPS smell. ARM SOC users can't > accept it. (They just say replace the CPU, but don't touch anything other.) > > PTE attributes are the non-coherent solution for many years. MIPS also > follows that now: > ref arch/mips/include/asm/pgtable-bits.h & > arch/mips/include/asm/pgtable.h RISC-V is in the process of standardizing Svpmbt extension. Unfortunately, the higher order bits which your implementation uses is not for SoC vendor use as-per the RISC-V privilege spec. > > #ifndef _CACHE_CACHABLE_NO_WA > #define _CACHE_CACHABLE_NO_WA (0<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_CACHABLE_WA > #define _CACHE_CACHABLE_WA (1<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_UNCACHED > #define _CACHE_UNCACHED (2<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_CACHABLE_NONCOHERENT > #define _CACHE_CACHABLE_NONCOHERENT (3<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_CACHABLE_CE > #define _CACHE_CACHABLE_CE (4<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_CACHABLE_COW > #define _CACHE_CACHABLE_COW (5<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_CACHABLE_CUW > #define _CACHE_CACHABLE_CUW (6<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > #endif > #ifndef _CACHE_UNCACHED_ACCELERATED > #define _CACHE_UNCACHED_ACCELERATED (7<<_CACHE_SHIFT) > > We can't force our users to double/triplicate their physical memory regions. We are trying to find a workable solution here so that we don't have to deal with custom PTE attributes which are reserved for RISC-V priv specification only. Regards, Anup > > > > > Regards, > > Anup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This implementation, which adds some Kconfig entries that > > > > > control page table bits, definately isn't suitable for upstream. > > > > > Allowing users to set arbitrary page table bits will eventually > > > > > conflict with the standard, and is just going to be a mess. > > > > > It'll also lead to kernels that are only compatible with > > > > > specific designs, which we're trying very hard to avoid. At a > > > > > bare minimum we'll need some way to detect systems with these > > > > > page table bits before setting them, and some description of > > > > > what the bits actually do so we can reason about > > > them. > > > > > > > > Yes, vendor specific Kconfig options are strict NO NO. We can't > > > > give-up the goal of unified kernel image for all platforms. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Anup > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Best Regards > > > Guo Ren > > > > > > ML: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-csky/ > > > > -- > Best Regards > Guo Ren > > ML: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-csky/ _______________________________________________ linux-riscv mailing list linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-riscv