From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD279C05027 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:49:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRto5-0004MO-Sf; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:49:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRto4-0004M8-Dn for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:49:08 -0500 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com ([170.10.133.124]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRto2-00056j-Ay for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:49:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1676375345; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=XvRJpfHTx9reVLSZG6eswjOgmLB9On1eeP0PjTgPK0Y=; b=VgnZX7sG6P0NT9XvxvXOHR/96cvZJd056ZFfyNDp9+lqcUm6+UaET3Ocf1D12D3mo1Z2is hM7l6ELXQe8B8upH3YEAE2Evep8gDg7VGW5gZipig3F4DVA2QTC6TN8rv9UZD3FrXb5PHo rE2JJzJroGKH2ZBpr8eluIOrQE7ZlAQ= Received: from mimecast-mx02.redhat.com (mx3-rdu2.redhat.com [66.187.233.73]) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP with STARTTLS (version=TLSv1.2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id us-mta-42-fHaRkVoaOl2QtYHbDeGSig-1; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:49:02 -0500 X-MC-Unique: fHaRkVoaOl2QtYHbDeGSig-1 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.rdu2.redhat.com [10.11.54.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mimecast-mx02.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849743828892; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:49:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from redhat.com (unknown [10.33.36.149]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B120492B15; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:48:58 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:48:55 +0000 From: Daniel =?utf-8?B?UC4gQmVycmFuZ8Op?= To: Markus Armbruster Cc: Peter Maydell , John Snow , qemu-devel , Cleber Rosa , Philippe =?utf-8?Q?Mathieu-Daud=C3=A9?= , Thomas Huth , Beraldo Leal , Michael Roth , Wainer dos Santos Moschetta , Paolo Bonzini , Qemu-block , Hanna Reitz , Alex =?utf-8?Q?Benn=C3=A9e?= , Kevin Wolf Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 6/7] CI: Stop building docs on centos8 Message-ID: References: <20230210003147.1309376-1-jsnow@redhat.com> <20230210003147.1309376-7-jsnow@redhat.com> <87cz6cpue3.fsf@pond.sub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87cz6cpue3.fsf@pond.sub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9 (2022-11-12) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 3.1 on 10.11.54.10 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=170.10.133.124; envelope-from=berrange@redhat.com; helo=us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Daniel =?utf-8?B?UC4gQmVycmFuZ8Op?= Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 08:40:20AM +0100, Markus Armbruster wrote: > Daniel P. Berrangé writes: > > [...] > > > We don't have to drop python 3.6. It is a choice because > > of a desire to be able to use some shiny new python > > features without caring about back compat. > > I read this on Friday, and decided to let it sit until after the > weekend. Well, it's now Tuesday, and to be frank, it's still as > offensively flippant as it was on Friday. It shows either ignorance of > or cavalier disregard for the sheer amount of work some of us have had > to put into keeping old versions of Python viable. > > The latter would be quite unlike you, so it must be the former. I'm sorry, I don't mean it to be offensive. I'm genuinely not seeing from the descriptions in the series what the functional benefits are from dropping 3.6. > John has sunk *man-months* into keeping old versions of Python viable. > I've put in a lot less myself, but still enough to be painfully aware of > it. I figure Cleber and Beraldo are somewhere in between > > Insinuating John's proposal is motivated by "a desire to be able to use > some shiny new python features without caring about back compat" > disrespects all this work. I'm writing my comments based on what is described in the cover letter as the motivations for the change: [quote] The motivation for this series is that Python 3.6 was EOL at the end of 2021; upstream tools are beginning to drop support for it, including setuptools, pylint, mypy, etc. As time goes by, it becomes more difficult to support and test against the full range of Python versions that QEMU supports. The closer we get to Python 3.12, the harder it will be to cover that full spread of versions. [/quote] this is all about new/eol versions of software upstream, and I don't think that's a justification. QEMU explicitly aims to use distro provided versions and upstream EOL status is not relevant in that context. Even if using "pip" to install it is possible to limit yourself to upstream releases which still support 3.6. There is the separate issue of Meson dropping python 3.6 which motivates Paolo's series. Again though, we don't have to increase our minimum meson version, because meson is working today. It is our choice to to increase it to use latest available meson features. At some point we can decide what we have is good enough and we don't have to keep chasing the latest features. Maybe we're not there yet, but we should think about when that would be. [quote] The qemu.qmp library and the avocado testing framework both have motivations for dropping 3.6 support, but are committed to not doing so until QEMU drops support. [/quote] I suspect that this is more of a driver for the drop of 3.6, but I don't see any details. IOW overall justification come across as wanting to use new features, and follow upstream EOL, without any real detail of what we're going to gain from a functional POV. > We should have a sober discussion on which versions of Python to work > with, and the tradeoffs involved. But before I engage in that, I insist > on resetting the frame: no, this is not about shiny, new Python > features. It is about stopping the bleeding. It is about reducing what > feels more and more like bullshit work to me, so we can actually > accomplish stuff that matters. Every applications developer chooses an arbitrary cut off points for minimum software versions, depending on their particular needs. With our support policy we tried to express a reasonable tradeoff between keeping back compat, and being able to adopt new features. Obviously that tradeoff is not currently looking acceptable on the python side, but it is not clear why that is ? Can someone simply explain what we wil see as the benefit from dropping 3.6 / adopting 3.7 as the baseline ? With regards, Daniel -- |: https://berrange.com -o- https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :| |: https://libvirt.org -o- https://fstop138.berrange.com :| |: https://entangle-photo.org -o- https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|