From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-px0-f184.google.com (mail-px0-f184.google.com [209.85.216.184]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00264B7BB4 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:13:34 +1000 (EST) Received: by pxi14 with SMTP id 14so6789816pxi.3 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:13:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <0046254A-432D-4AE3-9B9F-C0D30311B7D7@codex.gr> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system From: Brian Morris To: Guennadi Liakhovetski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd157eee959b30474af421a Cc: Konstantinos Margaritis , debian-powerpc@lists.debian.org, linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org, opensuse-ppc@opensuse.org List-Id: Linux on PowerPC Developers Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --000e0cd157eee959b30474af421a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think that you should start out with something of the sub-netbook type. These are the next generation and coming up very soon. For a home computer you need at least dual core and at those speeds it will need a very low price and small footprint. If you could sneak in on the sub-net quick perhaps power could become 2nd to ARM as AMD is to Intel. Intel is trying to sneak in but there could be some anti-trust issues, especially if there are other contenders (maybe). Its really too too bad PA-SEMI killed by apple last year. I am still mad about that. That was a really really nice cpu, 2ghz and 7watt and 64bit. Should have been illegal. The first subnetbook may likely be an apple product, and a tablet with an optional separate keyboard and a 9.5 inch screen, and the ARM cpu... On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski < g.liakhovetski@gmx.de> wrote: > On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote: > > > (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in > this, > > CC me as I'm not subscribed) > > Hi, > > > > First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time > > Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian > Developer, > > also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted > this on > > the following sites: > > > > > http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0 > > > > http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424 > > > > > http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11 > > > > > http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4 > > > > > http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604 > > > > To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here > it > > goes: > > > > I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system > (well, > > the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is > not a > > joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the > chance > > will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to > do a > > little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for > a new > > powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one? > > Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc. > And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why > should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to > Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system > give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant > negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop" > range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide > more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific > hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86? > > Thanks > Guennadi > > > > > Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in > order > > of probability/importance: > > > > 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher > > frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would > be > > prohibitive. > > 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and > includes a > > 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately. > > 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). > Apart > > from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet, > dual > > SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this > one > > would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec > unit > > (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad, > and > > availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait. > > > > Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610 > case) or > > PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include: > > > > * SATA connectors > > * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable) > > * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D > we > > might even have 4!!!) > > * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there) > > * 1 PCI-e slot 1x > > * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases) > > > > Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of > these. End > > price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR > > (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards. > > Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB > and > > only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the > case > > of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not > > enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices > down > > substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you > are > > wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded > by my > > company (Codex). > > > > Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a > > possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the > actual > > feedback I get from those users. > > > > I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such > a > > system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than > later if > > you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject > > "PowerPC board": > > > > * Name > > * Country > > * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!) > > * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix) > > * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case) > > * OS of preference > > * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022) > > * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I > mentioned, > > it might be lower but that's not very probable) > > * Other notes/comments > > > > Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove > that > > this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get > feedback. So > > far the feedback I got can be summarized here: > > > > http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60 > > > > Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality. > > > > Konstantinos Margaritis > > > > Codex > > _______________________________________________ > > Linuxppc-dev mailing list > > Linuxppc-dev@lists.ozlabs.org > > https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev > > --- > Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D. > Freelance Open-Source Software Developer > http://www.open-technology.de/ > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-powerpc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > listmaster@lists.debian.org > > --000e0cd157eee959b30474af421a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that you should start out with something of the sub-netbook type. T= hese are the next generation and coming up very soon. For a home computer y= ou need at least dual core and at those speeds it will need a very low pric= e and small footprint.

If you could sneak in on the sub-net quick perhaps power cou= ld become 2nd to ARM as AMD is to Intel. Intel is trying to sneak in but th= ere could be some anti-trust issues, especially if there are other contende= rs (maybe).

Its really too too bad PA-SEMI killed by apple last yea= r. I am still mad about that. That was a really really nice cpu, 2ghz and 7= watt and 64bit. Should have been illegal.

The =A0f= irst subnetbook =A0may likely be an apple product, and a tablet with an opt= ional separate keyboard and a 9.5 inch screen, and the ARM cpu...



On Sat, Sep 26, 2009= at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <g.liakhovetski@gmx.de> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Konstantinos Margaritis wrote:

> (Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested = in this,
> CC me as I'm not subscribed)
> Hi,
>
> First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time=
> Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian Devel= oper,
> also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've pos= ted this on
> the following sites:
>
> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/vie= wtopic.php?mode=3Dviewtopic&topic_id=3D29594&forum=3D33&start= =3D0&viewmode=3Dflat&order=3D0
>
> http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3D49424
>
> http://www.morphzone.org/m= odules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3D6465&forum=3D11
>
> http://aros-ex= ec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=3Dflat&topic_id=3D3768&= forum=3D4
>
> http://www.haiku-os.org/co= mmunity/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604
>
> To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but her= e it
> goes:
>
> I'm considering funding the design & production of a new Power= PC system (well,
> the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is= not a
> joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps th= e chance
> will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want = to do a
> little market research first. I know the market is literally "dyi= ng" for a new
> powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy o= ne?

Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.<= br> And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc s= ystem
give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop= "
range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific<= br> hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?

Thanks
Guennadi

>
> Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choic= es -not in order
> of probability/importance:
>
> 1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher > frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board wo= uld be
> prohibitive.
> 2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and in= cludes a
> 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
> 3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).= Apart
> from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit etherne= t, dual
> SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this= one
> would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVe= c unit
> (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that ba= d, and
> availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
>
> Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610 = case) or
> PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:
>
> * SATA connectors
> * USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
> * Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640= D we
> might even have 4!!!)
> * Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
> * 1 PCI-e slot 1x
> * 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
>
> Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of th= ese. End
> price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EU= R
> (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards= .
> Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SAT= A, USB and
> only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in th= e case
> of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there= is not
> enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices= down
> substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case y= ou are
> wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and fund= ed by my
> company (Codex).
>
> Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a=
> possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the ac= tual
> feedback I get from those users.
>
> I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in s= uch a
> system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than = later if
> you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject
> "PowerPC board":
>
> * Name
> * Country
> * email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
> * Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
> * Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
> * OS of preference
> * board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
> * preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I me= ntioned,
> it might be lower but that's not very probable)
> * Other notes/comments
>
> Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove = that
> this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get feed= back. So
> far the feedback I got can be summarized here:
>
> http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=3D&blogItem=3D60=
>
> Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality. >
> Konstantinos Margaritis
>
> Codex
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxppc-dev mailing list
> Linuxppc-dev@lists.oz= labs.org
> https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev

---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.ope= n-technology.de/


--
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