From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51992C64EC4 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:49:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S229655AbjCJMtd (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:49:33 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:39606 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229473AbjCJMtc (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:49:32 -0500 Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7CAD80914 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id g3so4926770wri.6 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:49:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678452569; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=k5ag6sHAKrSnz5nTfy07DguP6eNewShLqz1sRvCSuoU=; b=Rdq27RA/WMTCF2MSfCsHwStuyrKcgk/XFfudgLE/G/IaGGwb1wtqLQ15+X3w8QwNx0 ZCXTtprdU3eFEQJREHzpxVxIviyDs1aS954C5fSNcU5esxhqHo3HGgLUCE3xxrds+0uW Y4ck7n7W/d7zOhBh4OJE0KWU4BJXpOdqNWptQsF2UIMoCkucIaxl6cwO1mQmK9HRwDPt x+hzcDTxRTeXgOwe5wKYVa/ee35ldzI/Fmy7B94zy5feIYhaiUUo4lRw4lg23lLfFMnY PWlxnijP7LJLpp6EyXou4ogSHPfbhCiVxvU82QnG5xhgYtvBtdDPmmFQqLXz79wO15N5 w9jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678452569; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=k5ag6sHAKrSnz5nTfy07DguP6eNewShLqz1sRvCSuoU=; b=nySTOI3ax2Qv+6c0mF/ABSh04BTg0Yfl6iNicKd0g0S6DKN2hRAomjv1oTXw/GLh56 BPwrJSLA9mEHM4q6Szla2xF0VsoHDdIREvX0FK40AWbssrX7bRmFVaJN6eh/kplO5JAP MVfqtARbhMxbOTJqMVXlVApuWKRZaMqaSDdeZNfV0BeOtumL8+w/CyrlJ5+NQkFmMzRm 7GQU6J72wbwF8K5HgxSZRyLuEfkgaQ7XZucOIC/ohnmh0nSYuAPBtpQsE5Pt7mN24Ukp J9Ymrk/ftnGdopbSUpjCP+uJBtxP1SDJUuVte4urtyu2aypbcVD1xoEY2HPe8FckxLTt le6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUkiyAv/pUGAT0wMKkxeOu8roGBPIhXhlIDf5YaDcq5vw4IvL1k 5cpW3dNZVi8uBRWM0n9erfC49TUA1y8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+YSjWt53G1npMPW9DIzF8rBa8EjB09EKM86z9WhL/ATnsXb5IK1BHAE1p4ZE4wO4thRFfPpw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4383:0:b0:2bf:e39d:c8a7 with SMTP id i3-20020a5d4383000000b002bfe39dc8a7mr16856467wrq.44.1678452569356; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.160] ([170.253.51.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a8-20020adfed08000000b002c53f6c7599sm2155750wro.29.2023.03.10.04.49.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:49:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:49:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.8.0 Subject: Re: Revert "Many Pages: Remove references to C89" Content-Language: en-US To: linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Brian Inglis Cc: Matt.Jolly@footclan.ninja References: <8899aff7-4193-dd54-4488-234b1a6cee83@gmail.com> From: Alejandro Colomar In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------m2jdQBJRn9xhke1O7kiCC4ZY" Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------m2jdQBJRn9xhke1O7kiCC4ZY Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------RrRZHpZ23OWfQpfjIP5E11t0"; protected-headers="v1" From: Alejandro Colomar To: linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Brian Inglis Cc: Matt.Jolly@footclan.ninja Message-ID: Subject: Re: Revert "Many Pages: Remove references to C89" References: <8899aff7-4193-dd54-4488-234b1a6cee83@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --------------RrRZHpZ23OWfQpfjIP5E11t0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian, On 3/10/23 07:40, Brian Inglis wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 03:22:12 +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> On 3/10/23 02:51, Matt Jolly wrote: >>> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to raise an issue that= has=20 >>> been causing inconvenience for me (and potentially others). The recen= t=20 >>> removal of C89 information from man pages (72b349dd8c209d7375d4d4f76e= 2315943d654ee9)=20 >>> has put me in a difficult situation. >> As I continue to work on code= that adheres to the C89 style, such as cURL, >>> I am unable to quickly determine if a particular function can be used= or if >>> it was introduced in a later standard like C 99. >> This slows down m= y workflow and hampers my productivity. >>> Therefore, I kindly request that we revert the changes made in the "M= any=20 >>> pages: Remove references to C89" patch. >> Furthermore, I urge everyo= ne to recognize the importance of this >>> information and ensure it is not removed from man pages in the future= =2E >> The main problem was that the existing info about C89 was not consiste= nt. >> Some pages declared APIs being standard since C89, while others didn't= =2E >> Incorrect info isn't much better than no info. >> I'm curious about cURL's real need for C89. I see that cURL uses GNU >> extensions (-std=3Dgnu89), which actually pulls most of C99[1] (I thin= k >> it pulls the entire C library, and most of the core language). >> Virtually all (even MS, which has always been the last in this) >> systems support C99; why would you consciously avoid it? Is there >> any system that doesn't yet support it? Which are the C libraries >> that you need to support that don't provide C99 functions by default >> (or at all)? >> I'd like to really understand the need for C89 in 2023. > A quick browse down: >=20 > https://curl.se/download.html >=20 > shows a number of legacy platforms and versions available: >=20 > SCO UnixWare 7.10.3 > Linux MIPSel 7.10.7 > RISC OS 7.11.0 > Linux Slackware S390 7.12.2 > BeOS 7.12.3 > AmigaOS m68k 7.14.0 > SGI IRIX 6.5 7.15.1 > Digital Tru64 UNIX 4.0D 7.15.1 > SCO Open Server 5 7.15.1 > Linux Maemo 3.2 7.15.5 > Linux Slackware PPC 7.16.2 Slackintosh > Linux OpenWRT 8.09.1 MIPSel 7.17.1 > Linux Unslung 7.17.1 > MiNT 7.20.1 > QNX 6.5 7.21.7 > Linux =C3=85ngstr=C3=B6m PPC 7.24.0 > Plan9 7.28.1 9front > Linux Tizen 2.3 ARM 7.28.1 > OS/2 7.36.0 It would be interesting to know which compiler and libc is being used for each of those. >=20 > which may need e.g. third party patches to remain secure. > Not to mention the legacy systems on those platforms. > Perhaps the US FAA or certain US regional airlines still use these? ;^>= > Even DOS DJGPP supports GCC 9.3 with -std=3Dc2x! Indeed. Port your compiler (and libc) not your program ;) C99 has been supported by GCC since basically forever. Most of it seems to be supported since gcc-3.0 (year 2001), according to . Anyway, in the manual pages, the relevant part is libc. glibc supports C99 since glibc-2.2 (year 2000), according to . I would like to see a list of actual systems where there's no support for C99 functions at all. Cheers, Alex P.S.: Brian, how's that thing about digit separators going on? I hope I didn't discourage you by being picky in the commit separation :-) I'm really interested in those patches. --=20 GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5 --------------RrRZHpZ23OWfQpfjIP5E11t0-- --------------m2jdQBJRn9xhke1O7kiCC4ZY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE6jqH8KTroDDkXfJAnowa+77/2zIFAmQLJ1EACgkQnowa+77/ 2zI/HA//RDIhZx+EOqFXXA+utetT93CDpCtXFO2Tz9E5EQbRZV5uQtbjeF1lx393 m7DaHrVoGgq0jwZwRCyFpSDUarfR7X4qKn2vNlOeNij8BgPKrfbge62xr5d9pbjD MAtZpv9bzZRQJaW35M1lBgOoeZp97I7ICwfhAi3A6MAb1vVDibGbVIHs2h4D3Ncw IfmugsEMA3/IAt/3sPTQM18T6bSmMhvk96kq+znonzjT2Ap3rqFbYsvVa4WLgmAZ D7rIqFl4l7rFaBpaI1HXB40Y+3iitdP90WoAgwgjLhIjNU532/ISCgVTQaoqVKvq 3aaAz2iM7TriAFSTGF0dveyuDKCiQPrR7HegLnC8xWgF2P64rnIztsdJymduWm/E X89/ci9TNhNGsmX66HNiwgTFXSN+tMaXnibjYo3utKk5LMhFdtuS9ShZeTbaDVmx Nmi8bRhdQaxStjt33vCOR7m6y76djv3byKARQld18aLMOFsRHVFTDPDjzPquucVC ZPaBKKVPUzYj+jL4a0yZVUKParSiMhVhOV5z54Qz//qSgnDwPMEJK5zIOiKGa0CQ 7N2jZavqJIO1d0dHfcAg0+oU34SEp7M3HHysSQRuHdn9BICJFUiYYNP60SLGYxT1 upJs/2TaPJQyMFTMTp4y6pMZgoWXfebGjz3gCbWmKw3oKjtWL+o= =u/Nd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------m2jdQBJRn9xhke1O7kiCC4ZY--