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[178.164.237.246]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m2sm1066081ejg.7.2020.07.07.16.54.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Tibor Raschko To: Arvind Sankar References: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> <44713cf0-db41-bdd0-a41e-d710c346be12@gmail.com> <20200707212641.GA1575320@rani.riverdale.lan> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:54:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200707212641.GA1575320@rani.riverdale.lan> Content-Language: en-US X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 04:07:03 +0000 Cc: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology X-BeenThere: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Sender: "Ksummit-discuss" > Blacklist most definitely has a negative connotation in technical use. > You blacklist devices that don't work properly, you blacklist drivers > that don't work for your hardware, you blacklist domains that are > sending spam or trying to mount network attacks on your servers. Things > on the blacklist are "bad" in one way or the other, that's the reason > they're on it. > Of course, we put "bad" things on a blacklist. But in computing, only technical things, not black people. What I meant with "blacklist has no negative connotation" was that when we use the word "blacklist", nobody actually thinks about people or skin color. Blocking bad IP addresses or faulty devices is surely non-offensive. If you argue that instead of this, what we really care about is "black" things generally meaning something "bad", then forbidding "blacklist" will not get us any closer to our goal. This is because we have a hundred other "black" phrases in our language: black economy, black sheep, black market, to blacken, a blackleg, a blackguard, a black mark ... only a couple of examples from the top of my head. My point is we will never get rid of the bad connotations in "black". "Black" is always going to assume and remain something "unwanted", even after 2020. This is why I think this whole campaign of removing "blacklist" is utterly ridiculous and ineffective. The real problem is that a group of people have been marked and labeled with such a negative word. If we want to remove the negative association from black people, we should stop calling them black. That'd be productive in the long run, since afro-americans then wouldn't be associated with something "bad" anymore. But all the supporters of the campaign keep calling them something ba" by calling them black, and hope to make a difference by banning 2 or 3 totally unrelated phrases out of probably 50. The whole campaign is pointless and rides on emotion and media attention instead of rational thinking. I support avoiding references to master, slave, and to slavery in general. I oppose avoiding blacklist. Raschko T. _______________________________________________ Ksummit-discuss mailing list Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66ECC433E0 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 23:54:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984912073B for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 23:54:16 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="cimSHl5L" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1729084AbgGGXyL (ORCPT ); Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:54:11 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:55556 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1727945AbgGGXyL (ORCPT ); Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:54:11 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-x642.google.com (mail-ej1-x642.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::642]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC260C061755 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x642.google.com with SMTP id w16so48525229ejj.5 for ; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 16:54:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4ld5yvYpZk3zrDDeHii0Vpu7Nclpj2nEfal4+E6ydBE=; b=cimSHl5Lyez14li/0K2of8HcC6aVDRfdr9xZWOModnFxJTJgDRf2ZiJqxCsmDRAGNY BaBL+Em7jQFwAq8pJDeqxFtL/ltLdrdBiGoPar4NS97JPfcZe7ahhJBRNHWxCgXR0Dmw /ikwBXIUuSt2w52ZYWKt3HGoC8Z/M0eoQoqBqFDaqHTrW3AEpV1RAi7/5mdulV1E7Y/P JsLxPW9x0XVi1ZeOVf1YjHh2Ks5S6CT2c97mTKQ69x3JyEy1g5qAMNhYDPt9+OLXuk3q ONr7sibqVU+YpiZRxEZ0pzcNYzLWaVd/Hf8GQmr14Gyf5Wm/UNXnOciOQLFeSDSmN7ZK GnAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4ld5yvYpZk3zrDDeHii0Vpu7Nclpj2nEfal4+E6ydBE=; b=X9591Co6rMMeJ3DiAQuMX6OCKkMvqAL7Iw1gOc9DkTwpx59EJcNsAcClmm06lHx4cp x2RUkZisvWsMmGD33KtFJ6176yPtNpSONGbvswjxkBM/enhczAqgBPjtSBuvkvu2xRd4 1G9SrGpKL+X/taFLTHplYXco528Q6rGkjmEvmqzeXBylZXwudToKcvaBTFJSj60v2UT9 WfK5SnXBuf24HY9/pnfRAkcT2lwntjRBk83l00/kfTEgW5grJR0vCLqkKPANWRhjYvcL FEC0rznof2opNQBeSI0KTdSiygJtcpob77km4YZoMUeHUU7XdiRvXx9QqmODbZghHjIk FzmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vfsZCiJ0QLTAC/J/dmiTPthbgrOXaCG5cQnmQWN9PZ3WGB9FX mlbNHw6Kt4KdMFVDx/fu7jgcZKE9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyZ3NKJqQ4cGl9aGGZXkS+m/XXZWLYmC8ClxCAZoxLQg8sSzUvIXhl8E/KxRDs85vX9sK7Pw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:469a:: with SMTP id a26mr46852677ejr.198.1594166049386; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 16:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.50.2] (178-164-237-246.pool.digikabel.hu. [178.164.237.246]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m2sm1066081ejg.7.2020.07.07.16.54.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Tibor Raschko Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology To: Arvind Sankar Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, torvalds@linux-foundation.org, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , Mark Brown , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org References: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> <44713cf0-db41-bdd0-a41e-d710c346be12@gmail.com> <20200707212641.GA1575320@rani.riverdale.lan> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:54:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200707212641.GA1575320@rani.riverdale.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org > Blacklist most definitely has a negative connotation in technical use. > You blacklist devices that don't work properly, you blacklist drivers > that don't work for your hardware, you blacklist domains that are > sending spam or trying to mount network attacks on your servers. Things > on the blacklist are "bad" in one way or the other, that's the reason > they're on it. > Of course, we put "bad" things on a blacklist. But in computing, only technical things, not black people. What I meant with "blacklist has no negative connotation" was that when we use the word "blacklist", nobody actually thinks about people or skin color. Blocking bad IP addresses or faulty devices is surely non-offensive. If you argue that instead of this, what we really care about is "black" things generally meaning something "bad", then forbidding "blacklist" will not get us any closer to our goal. This is because we have a hundred other "black" phrases in our language: black economy, black sheep, black market, to blacken, a blackleg, a blackguard, a black mark ... only a couple of examples from the top of my head. My point is we will never get rid of the bad connotations in "black". "Black" is always going to assume and remain something "unwanted", even after 2020. This is why I think this whole campaign of removing "blacklist" is utterly ridiculous and ineffective. The real problem is that a group of people have been marked and labeled with such a negative word. If we want to remove the negative association from black people, we should stop calling them black. That'd be productive in the long run, since afro-americans then wouldn't be associated with something "bad" anymore. But all the supporters of the campaign keep calling them something ba" by calling them black, and hope to make a difference by banning 2 or 3 totally unrelated phrases out of probably 50. The whole campaign is pointless and rides on emotion and media attention instead of rational thinking. I support avoiding references to master, slave, and to slavery in general. I oppose avoiding blacklist. Raschko T. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4ld5yvYpZk3zrDDeHii0Vpu7Nclpj2nEfal4+E6ydBE=; b=cimSHl5Lyez14li/0K2of8HcC6aVDRfdr9xZWOModnFxJTJgDRf2ZiJqxCsmDRAGNY BaBL+Em7jQFwAq8pJDeqxFtL/ltLdrdBiGoPar4NS97JPfcZe7ahhJBRNHWxCgXR0Dmw /ikwBXIUuSt2w52ZYWKt3HGoC8Z/M0eoQoqBqFDaqHTrW3AEpV1RAi7/5mdulV1E7Y/P JsLxPW9x0XVi1ZeOVf1YjHh2Ks5S6CT2c97mTKQ69x3JyEy1g5qAMNhYDPt9+OLXuk3q ONr7sibqVU+YpiZRxEZ0pzcNYzLWaVd/Hf8GQmr14Gyf5Wm/UNXnOciOQLFeSDSmN7ZK GnAQ== From: Tibor Raschko References: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> <44713cf0-db41-bdd0-a41e-d710c346be12@gmail.com> <20200707212641.GA1575320@rani.riverdale.lan> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:54:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200707212641.GA1575320@rani.riverdale.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology List-Id: Public TAB discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: Arvind Sankar Cc: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, torvalds@linux-foundation.org > Blacklist most definitely has a negative connotation in technical use. > You blacklist devices that don't work properly, you blacklist drivers > that don't work for your hardware, you blacklist domains that are > sending spam or trying to mount network attacks on your servers. Things > on the blacklist are "bad" in one way or the other, that's the reason > they're on it. > Of course, we put "bad" things on a blacklist. But in computing, only technical things, not black people. What I meant with "blacklist has no negative connotation" was that when we use the word "blacklist", nobody actually thinks about people or skin color. Blocking bad IP addresses or faulty devices is surely non-offensive. If you argue that instead of this, what we really care about is "black" things generally meaning something "bad", then forbidding "blacklist" will not get us any closer to our goal. This is because we have a hundred other "black" phrases in our language: black economy, black sheep, black market, to blacken, a blackleg, a blackguard, a black mark ... only a couple of examples from the top of my head. My point is we will never get rid of the bad connotations in "black". "Black" is always going to assume and remain something "unwanted", even after 2020. This is why I think this whole campaign of removing "blacklist" is utterly ridiculous and ineffective. The real problem is that a group of people have been marked and labeled with such a negative word. If we want to remove the negative association from black people, we should stop calling them black. That'd be productive in the long run, since afro-americans then wouldn't be associated with something "bad" anymore. But all the supporters of the campaign keep calling them something ba" by calling them black, and hope to make a difference by banning 2 or 3 totally unrelated phrases out of probably 50. The whole campaign is pointless and rides on emotion and media attention instead of rational thinking. I support avoiding references to master, slave, and to slavery in general. I oppose avoiding blacklist. Raschko T.