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From: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
To: Victor Stewart <v@nametag.social>, Stefan Metzmacher <metze@samba.org>
Cc: Jens Axboe <axboe@kernel.dk>,
	selinux@vger.kernel.org, io-uring <io-uring@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-audit@redhat.com,
	Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi <memxor@gmail.com>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
	Pavel Begunkov <asml.silence@gmail.com>,
	Alexander Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit,io_uring,io-wq: add some basic audit support to io_uring
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 09:38:49 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <cba563e3-60da-3edf-e5fe-e409415ce3cc@schaufler-ca.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAM1kxwjFeawYPudx+ARBMYXgMtU_ypwuSKP7x7U7AQ69LxGQgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/26/2021 8:49 AM, Victor Stewart wrote:
>> I'm wondering why it's not enough to have the native auditing just to happen.
>>
>> E.g. all (I have checked RECVMSG,SENDMSG,SEND and CONNECT) socket related io_uring opcodes
>> already go via security_socket_{recvmsg,sendmsg,connect}()
>>
>> IORING_OP_OPENAT* goes via do_filp_open() which is in common with the open[at[2]]() syscalls
>> and should also trigger audit_inode() and security_file_open().
>>
>> So why is there anything special needed for io_uring (now that the native worker threads are used)?
>>
>> Is there really any io_uring opcode that bypasses the security checks the corresponding native syscall
>> would do? If so, I think that should just be fixed...
> stefan's points crossed my mind as well.
>
> but assuming iouring buy-in is required, from a design perspective,
> rather than inserting these audit conditionals in the hotpath,
> wouldn't a layering model work better?
> aka enabling auditing changes the function entry point into io_uring
> and passes operations through an auditing layer, then back to the main
> entry point. then there is no
> cost to audit disabled code, and you just force audit to pay whatever
> double processing cost that entails.

There seems to be an assumption that the audit code isn't concerned
about processing cost. This is complete nonsense. While an audit system
has to be accurate and complete (hence encompassing io_uring) it also
has to be sufficiently performant for the system to be useful when it
is enabled. It would have been real handy had the audit and LSM
requirements been designed into io_uring. The performance implications
could have been addressed up front. Instead it all has to be retrofit.
io_uring, Audit and LSM need to perform well and the best way to ensure
that the combination works is cooperation between the developers. Any
response that includes the word "just" is unlikely to be helpful.


>
> V
>
> --
> Linux-audit mailing list
> Linux-audit@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-audit
>


WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
To: Victor Stewart <v@nametag.social>, Stefan Metzmacher <metze@samba.org>
Cc: Jens Axboe <axboe@kernel.dk>,
	selinux@vger.kernel.org, Pavel Begunkov <asml.silence@gmail.com>,
	linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-audit@redhat.com,
	Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi <memxor@gmail.com>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
	io-uring <io-uring@vger.kernel.org>,
	Alexander Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit,io_uring,io-wq: add some basic audit support to io_uring
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 09:38:49 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <cba563e3-60da-3edf-e5fe-e409415ce3cc@schaufler-ca.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAM1kxwjFeawYPudx+ARBMYXgMtU_ypwuSKP7x7U7AQ69LxGQgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/26/2021 8:49 AM, Victor Stewart wrote:
>> I'm wondering why it's not enough to have the native auditing just to happen.
>>
>> E.g. all (I have checked RECVMSG,SENDMSG,SEND and CONNECT) socket related io_uring opcodes
>> already go via security_socket_{recvmsg,sendmsg,connect}()
>>
>> IORING_OP_OPENAT* goes via do_filp_open() which is in common with the open[at[2]]() syscalls
>> and should also trigger audit_inode() and security_file_open().
>>
>> So why is there anything special needed for io_uring (now that the native worker threads are used)?
>>
>> Is there really any io_uring opcode that bypasses the security checks the corresponding native syscall
>> would do? If so, I think that should just be fixed...
> stefan's points crossed my mind as well.
>
> but assuming iouring buy-in is required, from a design perspective,
> rather than inserting these audit conditionals in the hotpath,
> wouldn't a layering model work better?
> aka enabling auditing changes the function entry point into io_uring
> and passes operations through an auditing layer, then back to the main
> entry point. then there is no
> cost to audit disabled code, and you just force audit to pay whatever
> double processing cost that entails.

There seems to be an assumption that the audit code isn't concerned
about processing cost. This is complete nonsense. While an audit system
has to be accurate and complete (hence encompassing io_uring) it also
has to be sufficiently performant for the system to be useful when it
is enabled. It would have been real handy had the audit and LSM
requirements been designed into io_uring. The performance implications
could have been addressed up front. Instead it all has to be retrofit.
io_uring, Audit and LSM need to perform well and the best way to ensure
that the combination works is cooperation between the developers. Any
response that includes the word "just" is unlikely to be helpful.


>
> V
>
> --
> Linux-audit mailing list
> Linux-audit@redhat.com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-audit
>


--
Linux-audit mailing list
Linux-audit@redhat.com
https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-audit


  reply	other threads:[~2021-05-26 16:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 144+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-05-21 21:49 [RFC PATCH 0/9] Add LSM access controls and auditing to io_uring Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:49 ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:49 ` [RFC PATCH 1/9] audit: prepare audit_context for use in calling contexts beyond syscalls Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:49   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:49 ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit,io_uring,io-wq: add some basic audit support to io_uring Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:49   ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit, io_uring, io-wq: " Paul Moore
2021-05-22  0:22   ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit,io_uring,io-wq: " Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-22  0:22     ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-22  2:36     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-22  2:36       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-23 20:26       ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-23 20:26         ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-24 19:59         ` Paul Moore
2021-05-24 19:59           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-25  8:27           ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-25  8:27             ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-25 14:53             ` Paul Moore
2021-05-25 14:53               ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26  1:11           ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26  1:11             ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26  2:04             ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26  2:04               ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 10:19               ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-26 10:19                 ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-26 14:38                 ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 14:38                   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 15:11                   ` Steve Grubb
2021-05-26 15:11                     ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit, io_uring, io-wq: " Steve Grubb
2021-05-26 15:17                   ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit,io_uring,io-wq: " Stefan Metzmacher
2021-05-26 15:17                     ` Stefan Metzmacher
2021-05-26 15:49                     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-26 15:49                       ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-26 17:22                       ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 17:22                         ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-27 17:27                         ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-27 17:27                           ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-26 15:49                     ` Victor Stewart
2021-05-26 15:49                       ` Victor Stewart
2021-05-26 16:38                       ` Casey Schaufler [this message]
2021-05-26 16:38                         ` Casey Schaufler
2021-05-26 17:15               ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 17:15                 ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 17:31                 ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 17:31                   ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 17:54                   ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 17:54                     ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 18:01                     ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 18:01                       ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 18:44                       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 18:44                         ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 18:57                         ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-26 18:57                           ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-05-26 19:10                           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 19:10                             ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 19:44                         ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 19:44                           ` Jens Axboe
2021-05-26 20:19                           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 20:19                             ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 16:02                             ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 16:02                               ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02  8:26                               ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-06-02  8:26                                 ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-06-02 15:46                                 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-02 15:46                                   ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-03 10:39                                   ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-06-03 10:39                                     ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-06-02 19:46                                 ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 19:46                                   ` Paul Moore
2021-06-03 10:51                                   ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-06-03 10:51                                     ` Pavel Begunkov
2021-06-03 15:54                                     ` Casey Schaufler
2021-06-03 15:54                                       ` Casey Schaufler
2021-06-03 15:54                               ` Jens Axboe
2021-06-03 15:54                                 ` Jens Axboe
2021-06-04  5:04                                 ` Paul Moore
2021-06-04  5:04                                   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 18:38                     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 18:38                       ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 17:29   ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] audit, io_uring, io-wq: " Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-02 17:29     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-02 20:46     ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 20:46       ` Paul Moore
2021-08-25  1:21       ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-08-25  1:21         ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-08-25 19:41         ` Paul Moore
2021-08-25 19:41           ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 3/9] audit: dev/test patch to force io_uring auditing Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 4/9] audit: add filtering for io_uring records Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-28 22:35   ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-28 22:35     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-30 15:26     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-30 15:26       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-31 13:44       ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-31 13:44         ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-02  1:40         ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02  1:40           ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 15:37           ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-02 15:37             ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-02 17:20             ` Paul Moore
2021-06-02 17:20               ` Paul Moore
2021-05-31 13:44       ` [PATCH 1/2] audit: add filtering for io_uring records, addendum Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-31 13:44         ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-31 16:08         ` kernel test robot
2021-05-31 16:08           ` kernel test robot
2021-05-31 16:08           ` kernel test robot
2021-05-31 17:38         ` kernel test robot
2021-05-31 17:38           ` kernel test robot
2021-05-31 17:38           ` kernel test robot
2021-06-07 23:15         ` Paul Moore
2021-06-07 23:15           ` Paul Moore
2021-06-08 12:55           ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-08 12:55             ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-06-09  2:45             ` Paul Moore
2021-06-09  2:45               ` Paul Moore
2021-05-31 13:44       ` [PATCH 2/2] audit: block PERM fields being used with io_uring filtering Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-31 13:44         ` Richard Guy Briggs
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 5/9] fs: add anon_inode_getfile_secure() similar to anon_inode_getfd_secure() Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 6/9] io_uring: convert io_uring to the secure anon inode interface Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 7/9] lsm,io_uring: add LSM hooks to io_uring Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 14:48   ` Stefan Metzmacher
2021-05-26 14:48     ` Stefan Metzmacher
2021-05-26 20:45     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 20:45       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 8/9] selinux: add support for the io_uring access controls Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50 ` [RFC PATCH 9/9] Smack: Brutalist io_uring support with debug Paul Moore
2021-05-21 21:50   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-22  0:53 ` [RFC PATCH 0/9] Add LSM access controls and auditing to io_uring Tetsuo Handa
2021-05-22  0:53   ` Tetsuo Handa
2021-05-22  2:06   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-22  2:06     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 15:00 ` Jeff Moyer
2021-05-26 15:00   ` Jeff Moyer
2021-05-26 18:49   ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 18:49     ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 19:07     ` Jeff Moyer
2021-05-26 19:07       ` Jeff Moyer
2021-05-26 19:10       ` Paul Moore
2021-05-26 19:10         ` Paul Moore

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